The Academy Insider Podcast - Your Guide to The Naval Academy Experience
The mission of Academy Insider is to guide, serve, and support Midshipmen, future Midshipmen, and their families. Through the perspective of a community of former graduates and Naval Academy insiders, this podcast will help you learn about life at the United States Naval Academy in Annapolis. Through our shared experiences, Academy Insider guides families through the anxiety and frustration caused by lack of understanding, misinformation, and confusion. This platform is designed to better relationships between midshipmen and their loved ones. This podcast is not affiliated with the United States Naval Academy, the United States Navy or Department of Defense. The thoughts and opinions are exclusively those of your host and his guests.
The Academy Insider Podcast - Your Guide to The Naval Academy Experience
#087 Lessons from the Admiral: Navigating the Waters of Military Leadership and Insight for Rising Officers
Are you curious about the inner workings of military leadership and the valuable lessons that can shape a young officer's career? In this episode of the Academy Insider Podcast, I sit down with Mark C. Fava, author of the soon-to-be-released book "Lessons from the Admiral," to explore the unique insights gained from his time as a flag aide.
Mark's experience offers a fascinating perspective on leadership development for junior officers navigating the complexities of military life. We delve into the critical role of a flag aide and the competitive nature of this position, shedding light on how it can open doors and build invaluable connections.
Key Leadership Lessons Explored:
- Understanding your boss and aligning with their priorities
- The profound impact of punctuality in military and civilian life
- Navigating the delicate balance between loyalty and integrity
- The art of not panicking under pressure
- Embracing teamwork and acknowledging others' contributions
Mark shares captivating stories from his time as a flag aide, including a humorous anecdote about a haircut that teaches an important lesson about discretion. We also discuss the critical importance of building strong relationships with chiefs and how their guidance can shape a young officer's career.
Takeaways for Aspiring Leaders:
- Learn to ask for help when needed – it's a sign of strength, not weakness
- Understand the small but impactful ways to be a great team player
- Recognize the value of serving others and the unique opportunities the military provides
- Develop strategies for maintaining composure in high-pressure situations
- Cultivate meaningful relationships across all ranks to enhance your leadership effectiveness
Whether you're a midshipman, a junior officer, or simply interested in military leadership, this episode offers valuable insights that can be applied both in and out of uniform. Join us as we unpack these lessons and explore how they can shape the next generation of military leaders.
The mission of Academy Insider is to guide, serve, and support Midshipmen, future Midshipmen, and their families.
Grant Vermeer your host is the person who started it all. He is the founder of Academy Insider and the host of The Academy Insider podcast and the USNA Property Network Podcast. He was a recruited athlete which brought him to Annapolis where he was a four year member of the varsity basketball team. He was a cyber operations major and commissioned into the Cryptologic Warfare Community. He was stationed at Fort Meade and supported the Subsurface Direct Support mission.
He separated from the Navy in 2023 and now owns The Vermeer Group, a boutique residential real estate company that specializes in serving the United States Naval Academy community PCSing to California & Texas.
We are here to be your guide through the USNA experience.
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Welcome to Season 2 of the Academy Insider Podcast. Academy Insider is a 501c3 nonprofit organization that serves midshipmen, future midshipmen and their families. At its core, this podcast is designed to bring together a community of Naval Academy graduates and those affiliated with the United States Naval Academy in order to tell stories and provide a little bit of insight into what life at the Naval Academy is really like. I hope you enjoy it. Thank you so much for listening and reach out if you ever have any questions. Hey everyone, and welcome back to the Academy Insider Podcast.
Speaker 1:In today's episode I'm joined by Mark Fava, which just is about to release and publish a book called Lessons from the Admiral, which is an incredible cool insight into military leadership, and it's actually it'll catch you off guard it's actually not about his time as an admiral. It's about his time and reflections upon working for an admiral as an admiral's aide. So if you just are wondering, you're like, what the heck is an admiral's aide? Well, listen to the episode because we're going to answer that question. But we're also going to talk a lot about leadership lessons that he learned in that spot for young military junior officers trying to make their way up in the ranks and kind of navigating the difficulties of being a military junior officer. So, again, if that's something that you're interested in, make sure to check out this episode. I think you'll really love it.
Speaker 1:And again, if you know anyone who you think would enjoy this or benefit from this platform, please share it with them. It would mean the world to me. Otherwise, I really hope you enjoy the listen. Thank you so much. Have a great day. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:With a trusted Academy affiliated agent in the market which you're in, please reach out to me directly at grant at the premier groupcom. You can also reach out to me on my LinkedIn page grant from here and I'd be happy to respond to you there. Thank you so much, and now let's get back to the episode. Hey everyone, and welcome back to the Academy insider podcast. Mark, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today to talk about again the release of your new book, lessons from the Admiral, and run us through again with the hope to inspire and provide a little bit of insight into the life and leadership journey and development of a young junior officer and potentially even a midshipman. And so, before we jump into that, if you don't mind just giving a brief introduction of yourself to the audience, where you're from, how you ended up in the Navy and then kind of your path through the Navy into what you're doing now.
Speaker 2:That would be awesome kind of your path through the Navy into what you're doing now. That would be awesome. Sure, listen. Thanks so much. It's such an honor to be on this podcast and especially with your audience.
Speaker 2:I am a Navy brat. Dad was in the Navy, dad was a supply corps captain and like many folks, we moved to Charleston when I was young because dad was stationed in Charleston, so that became home and from there high school here. I went to University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and at the time Dad said if you're going out of state much like you would get at the academy he said you better get a scholarship because you got a kid ahead of you and a kid behind you. I can't afford three at once. If you can't get a scholarship, then you're going to go in state at either Clemson or South Carolina, both great schools. Clemson didn't have a naval ROTC unit, chapel Hill did so.
Speaker 2:I graduated from Chapel Hill in 1985 as a young midshipman, finished up as the battalion commander there what a cool place it was and then went to flight school, ended up being a naval flight officer in P3's junior officer tour and I got to where I am today because I had a lieutenant commander, jag officer that was mentoring me and I got to where I am today because I had a Lieutenant Commander JAG officer that was mentoring me and I was the legal officer in the Navy squadron. So after six years I decided that the Cold War was over. I want to do something else, a little bit fun. Stay in the reserves, but went to law school, and that's where I got to where I am now. So 30 years later, graduated from University of South Carolina Law School in 1994. How about that?
Speaker 1:Well, way cool, and all of those experiences through your time in the Navy and beyond led you again to getting ready to publish this book, which will come out on Tuesday, titled Lessons from the Admiral, which really highlights and documents your experience actually as a flag aide. And so I think that was really cool, because originally, when I had seen the title as well, I think, like many will assume it's like oh hey, it's an admiral sharing their experiences, but it's actually a little bit different. It's your experience of witnessing your boss a great boss that you had, and documenting some of these incredible life and leadership lessons you learned along the way. And so, to provide a little context for the listener as well, do you mind talking about what a flag aid is Like? What does that mean when someone hears this term flag aid?
Speaker 2:Yeah, listen, it was a phenomenal job. So I finished my first tour in the squadron I was thinking about going to be a Naval Flight Officer instructor and the same mentor, the same Lieutenant Commander, who ultimately retired as a JAG Admiral years later, said hey, did you ever think about being a flag aid? And I said no, what is it and what do you do? The same question, and it's an incredible job. You are the Admiral's number one point person for everything they do every single day and you're responsible for getting them where they need to be, the excellence in how they get there, how they present themselves and at the same time, you get to see everything behind the scenes of the Admiral's life. And that really was formative for me because it was my first job where I was working that closely with a boss that was that senior to me. And that was the lessons, and I've been thinking about them for 30 years. How about?
Speaker 1:it and when you're writing this book, when you're thinking about the end in mind of the takeaway, before we even dive into some of the lessons that you did learn, what were you hoping for people to take away from this book? What was the intention behind it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the intention was exactly what you hit on. This isn't me talking about me as a leader. It's me talking about how I observed a leader, and my philosophy is you become a leader based on observing both good and bad leaders and incorporating both their strengths and their weaknesses. So that was the takeaway of the book. Look what I learned in this job from this admiral. Many, many years ago had become part of my fabric, of how I operate today.
Speaker 1:And just to highlight and really double down on your point about the flag aid, it is a really important position and it's a really competitive job as well. There's a lot of selection process that goes into who becomes flag aids, that number one assistant again to the admirals, and in many cases again my time is a midshipman. Just to highlight this, there was an officer, lieutenant Kayla Barron, who was a submarine officer. She became the aid to Admiral Carter who was the superintendent of the Naval Academy and now she's an astronaut right With NASA right, and so obviously it's an extreme example. But again, when we talk about and highlight some of these things just for midshipman parents or parents of officers out there, again, being a flag aid gives you incredible opportunity to build relationships with a lot of these people who have the connections to again help open doors to get you where you want to go in life Right. It's arduous but it's great. A lot of opportunity.
Speaker 2:The best 18 months of my life in terms of learning that and building exactly what you said the network. You're you know, you hear that phrase in Top Gun the best of the best. Well, really, as an aide, that's what you're picked. I mean, the selection is brutal and once you get it, it's a very, very difficult thing to do. But boy, as I look today back, whenever I connect with people on LinkedIn, you'd be amazed at the number of people who are leading the aircraft, carriers commanding the squadrons, or the SWOs, captains of the ships, who are now also admirals. And when I scroll down, I see flag aid to so-and-so and so-and-so and I laugh because I'll connect with them and I say, hey, I see you're also a member of Order of the Loop, because we've all been there, done that. Everybody knows what the job is and what it is.
Speaker 1:Do you mind just breaking down that term, the order of the loop, because I think this is actually really funny and maybe a key little thing for again a parent walking through the Naval Academy who sees an officer with the loop.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know, order comes from anything like in law school. There's order of the coif, order of this, order of all these honorary societies. Order of the Loop is called Order of the Loop because when you're the aid, you get to wear a yellow and gold I'm sorry, a golden blue braid on your shoulder, and the higher the stars, the apple, are, the more braids you have, and that's called an agri-led French. I took Spanish but you got to get that right. And the neat thing about that is here you are as a very young junior officer maybe four years, five years out of the academy, and you're walking around with this admiral. But sometimes you're not walking around with the admiral and people got to listen to you and they got to do what you say and they don't break you. So the agulet is a wonderful symbol that tells people hey, I'm saying this for somebody else and it needs to be done. It's a really really neat thing, really neat thing.
Speaker 1:Because again in this book you actually talk about a couple of times to where the Admiral tells you to use his stars sparingly, right, but sometimes you don't even have to because you, just you carry it with your uniform, right, Like people see that and they know. Right Like they understand, yeah.
Speaker 2:No doubt about it. I mean, it's a delicate balance and junior officers understand this right as an ensign in whatever community you are, even as a JG and the lieutenant. If you're smart, you're going to realize that the people you're dealing with now are ultimately going to either be your CO later, the lieutenant commanders and commanders, or they're going to be your colleagues or they're going to be your colleagues. So when you're using the stars and the aggolot, you got to be careful, but you got to get the job done. But you really don't want to upset people or piss people off too terribly because they will remember you Absolutely.
Speaker 1:So I appreciate that that's a funny little tidbit. I'm glad we got to talk about that gold. I'm just going to keep using the term loop as a normal person, the as a normal person, the gold loop around the shoulder, because it is a funny again, it's an indicator and that hopefully a little piece of that insider knowledge for all you listening. Again, if you see an officer walking around with that gold loop, you can know oh, like, that is an aid, right, that is an aid to an accident, and so and listen.
Speaker 2:you've seen these too. And one more thing for our families and parents. So the ceremonial loop is phenomenal, I mean it. It straps around two or three different places. Has, you know, cords hanging down? We used to call that the Anaconda snake, it was just all over the place. So when you're at a real big ceremony, the apple is dressed up, you're dressed up and the ceremonial loop is very, very beautiful.
Speaker 1:Very cool, all right. Well, let's jump into some of these lessons that you cover in this book, and I want to give you the opportunity to to talk about some of these lessons that you cover in this book. And I want to give you the opportunity to talk about some of these. And the first one that you mentioned, and I thought it's really interesting because, again, a lot of time when people are reading a leadership book, they're assuming, like you mentioned, it's going to be a top-down leadership thing. They're telling you how to lead down, right, but your first lesson is actually all about knowing your boss and understanding your boss. Why is this lesson so important? What did you learn during your time? And then, specifically, why is this lesson critical? For JOs right, who are going to have multiple bosses their department head, an XO, a CO right how does this lesson relate to them and what should they focus on?
Speaker 2:Yeah, listen, I think and that's why I put that in the first chapter any job civilian, military or junior officer that you start, you got to figure out real quickly what the measuring stick is right. You might think I need to do this, this and this, but you got to know what the CO thinks or what the department head thinks or whoever the person that's going to evaluating you. What they think, that's what you need to know and for me that was critically important, not only with the admiral. But every job I ever went to is okay, I know what's important to me, but that doesn't really matter at the end of the day. Right, for a good boss it will matter, but what really matters in terms of my promotion and my successful job is what is important to the person who's going to be evaluating me. So I say, get to know what's important to your boss very early on.
Speaker 1:It's a lesson that never goes away, right? I think that's the funny thing, because when we're talking to JOs, it's about the department head, the XO, the CEO, yes, but the day you become the CEO now it's the Commodore. The Commodore's got a boss, the Admiral has a boss, right, you know what I mean? And again, and it just can like it continues to go up and if you never embrace that mindset right, like you, you can get lost pretty quick.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Look, when I became a squadron CO this is fast forward, you know 15, 20 years later, commanding officer of a patrol squadron, VP squadron out of Jacksonville, P3 squadron You're right, I had a Commodore Guess what? He was a Naval Academy graduate. I was not, and back then, you know, we still didn't have a whole lot of equality. I mean, the top are always Academy folks and we were doing this thing called active reserve integration, where reservists were integrating with the active component. I didn't really care for it, I didn't join the reservists to be an active duty person, but he did right. So I used to tell my squadron look, this is what we're going to do. This is, you know, you can complain all you want behind closed doors, but this is what we're going to do because it was important to him and that's what we did.
Speaker 1:We did. I love it. We're moving on a little bit here Now. One of the next lessons that you mentioned is all about the importance of being on time. It seems so simple, right, like when we're talking about this. It seems so simple like, yeah, be on time, but there's so much more to it than again, than just that Again. Do you mind sharing your experience in stories about why this little piece of information, this tidbit, became such a critical lesson?
Speaker 2:for you. Yeah, I just think bosses looking down especially older generation or more mature generation are always looking at things like that and punctuality is so significant, not only as a leader, but also as an inspiring leader. It just shows whether or not you can execute a plan, and being on time is critical and there were a couple of times I talk about in the book where I missed the mark. One of them I missed the mark by a complete hour because I had miscalculated the time zone going from New Orleans to Jacksonville. It was terrible and I didn't get fired.
Speaker 2:But I just think it carries over to my job as a lawyer, to my job as a commanding officer and to now my job as a vice president. It's just so important, I think, to be punctual and I think it's something that we've lost. We lost a little bit during COVID how many meetings did you join? Or WebExes did you join? And they said let's give them 10 or 15 minutes for people to join. And I'm looking at my watch thinking, no, they should be just like you did with me, grant, the 10 or 15 minutes should be before the time, not after the time. So I think it's very important, even today, to be on time.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, I love it. Again, it's simple things. It always reminds me of, you know, the speech that Admiral McRaven gave too, talking about the importance of making your bed right. These like simple actions, right, but it shows at a greater level. Right, the making your bed is just the accomplishing of a simple task, but for you, in this, being on time, right, it's again to show up on time. It seems like such a little thing but, like you're saying, it requires proper planning, it requires proper execution to make sure that you're coordinating all the details to be there on time. You're taking care of yourself and, again, you're adding in buffers for things that could happen right. Again, it shows if you're a person who is consistently punctual, consistently on time. It means you're well thought out and you take action. Right, you take action.
Speaker 2:Dependable, credible. And let me tell you something, going back to being an aide in Js, we'll appreciate this. I mean, anytime we went somewhere, I did advanced planning and back then we didn't have Waze, we didn't have apps, we didn't have Google Maps. I mean, I had an old map with a highlighter and if we had to be somewhere at six o'clock in the morning the night before, I would drive the route and I would know exactly how long it took us to get there, because I couldn't get to a road that was closed and look at the album and say we're going to be late, you know because? But I think it's.
Speaker 2:I think those are just great examples of the fabric of leadership. I think that's just one of them. And I will say Abel McRaven's books are wonderful. I've read all of them and the biggest compliment I got on my book recently as I showed somebody the cover at Barnes and Noble I was pitching for them, for for them for what was going to be an upcoming book signing there, and they said, oh, I love the cover, it looks like Admiral McRaven's books.
Speaker 2:I said that's exactly what.
Speaker 1:I was trying to do. Keep that going, baby. I love it. One of my favorite stories that you tell in this book is you're sitting in your barber chair Again, just a normal person sitting in their barber chair, talking, talking with their barber and you mention and you tell the stories of the admiral's weekend plans, and then you have a future conversation with the admiral and he he brings it up that the fact that you were talking about him ended up back to him and it's a good thing. It was a positive story. It's not like you were talking bad about him, but even the fact that, like he was discussed, made its way back to him, and so I want to put it over to you. Can you highlight the importance of why words matter and how small the Navy is and, again, the importance of being really intentional with your words and what you say?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and that's just another great example of you know why words matter. What I learned as a JO is incredibly important. You know, as a lawyer, it's the. It's the same thing.
Speaker 2:That was just a simple episode. You know, when I started the job and this is chapter maybe one, I call it the initial guidance he told me you know, what I do on my time is my business, it's the business of a Navy Admiral, nobody else's business. So I'm just sitting in that barber chair one Saturday, you know, getting squared away to go on a trip, getting like you always had to have a haircut. You know regulation as an Admiral's aide. You got to be squared away as the Admiral's aide because you are the best of the best. And I just mentioned, yeah, I was going to go over to the Admiral's house Saturday night to, you know, to do this, that and the other, no big deal, just what I call in the book scuttlebutt. Right, it's a? Well, look that up, it's a wonderful, maybe term for what you shouldn't be doing gossiping. And then I get in the car with the Admiral Monday morning and he says I see you got your haircut. I'm like going yeah, okay, he saw, I got my haircut.
Speaker 2:And then he says Jack's a good barber, isn't he? And what does Jack do? Jack did what all barbers does do. He said I heard you had something at your house last night and the admiral's thinking. Who in the world told him that? Well, there was only one person. He's smart. He connected the dots and again to his leadership style. All he said was don't let that happen again. And I said yes, sir, it will not. I say that a couple of times in the book.
Speaker 1:Yes, sir it will not Absolutely. Again, that one's, that one's. It's a funny story, right, and it's a. It's a good lesson to learn, without really severe consequences, because it I'm sure a lot of people have experienced that with a more unfortunate choice of storytelling. Right, and you know, it's a, a. It's an interesting piece to think about. But again, when we talk about all these leadership aspects and trying to it was something you mentioned earlier too as well about, you know, not almost abusing the power of being an aid to burn bridges, right Again, relationships matter, right Relationships matter, and you need to be really, again, strategic and tactical with your words as well as you're doing these things to make sure that you're never putting anyone in a in a bad spot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and that's true for good or bad leaders. You know, I've had, I've got three daughters and a couple of times one of them has said to me you know it's, we're not talking about fair, we're talking about success and relationships. And how do you navigate that as a young leader who aspires to be a better leader?
Speaker 1:One of your next lessons I think resonates so much with midshipmen and something I talk about a lot on this platform, and it's about asking for help when you need it. I feel like many times midshipmen and young JLs have a hard time with this. Right, they have such a high individual success rate. Right, they're high individual performers.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, they can do anything on their own, and a lot of times kind of become ashamed when they can't Right, and so my question to you again is how did you learn this lesson, and why is it so important to be able to ask for help?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I learned it on another one. You read in the book I'm taking the animal to a war room of a destroyer, a small ship, and I round the corner because I think I know the route and the route is blocked by a sailor who's buffing the deck and it's crisscrossed off with tape and he's not going to let us by. So I looked at my watch. I'm like, okay, I got 10 minutes to get there. What am I going to do? Well, I'm going to ask for help. And that's just a small example of what you're talking about. But it does take a lot of swallow and humble pride to ask for help. But what I've learned is it's amazing, amazing. The people who will help you, who will wrap their arms around you and say, okay, I got it, I've been there, I'll take care of you.
Speaker 2:And I learned that also in my legal career when I was once, you know, I filed a pleading late. I was in default. I didn't know what to do. I mean, it's potentially legal malpractice to do that. I was at a big law firm. I didn't want to admit it. I slept two or three nights worrying about it and then I went down the hall and asked a partner hey, I need your help. And he took care of me. So I think for midshipmen and for people who aspire to lead, always ask for help, because things that are bad don't get better over time. Just get the help that you need and people will be glad to help you.
Speaker 1:I wholeheartedly agree, especially the fact that people will be there to help you, especially in the Navy and especially at the Naval Academy. I think this piece is really interesting. It's actually a conversation I had with Chowda, and so if you haven't listened to the podcast episode with Chowda, I highly recommend you go check it out, because it's awesome and he's such a great personality. He's the CEO of the USS Eisenhower and he kind of shares his reflections on leadership and deployment. He kind of shares his reflections on leadership and deployment, but he kind of always talks about the fact that, like hey, I truly believe, even if people don't articulate it, the reason people join the Navy is somewhere deep down inside of them. They have this desire to serve right, the desire to help people.
Speaker 1:Whether or not, again it's at the forefront of their mind of why they're doing it. Like people are called and have a, you know, an attraction to the service, because of that desire to be a part of something bigger than themselves, in an organization that, like, helps each other Right. And so in this, in this organization just doubling down on what you said again if you have the humility, the ability to swallow again your pride and ask for help and be genuine about it, like there were going to be a lot of people who are going to be willing to help you, and they're going to be a lot of people, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I've never had anybody look at me and say I'm not going to help you. You're on your own. I mean never. And and the key with asking for help is sometimes you're at that turning point in your road where you're either going to go bad or get help and go good. And it's wonderful to go the other way Go good, without a doubt.
Speaker 1:When you show up, you turn the corner and that P-way is blocked off. I'm sure you get a little feeling of panic in there, a little feeling of like, oh snap, what do I do now? One of your next lessons that you talk about in this book is about the fact that you can't panic under pressure. I know you personally didn't go to the Naval Academy where I think for a lot of people listening, plebe summer is really our first training into this idea of not panicking under pressure, because you live an entire summer constantly under pressure. Yep, do you have any experiences similar to this that set the foundation for you in that way? What lessons did you learn along the way that helped you again not panic under pressure? Why do you think this is so important, again, for young aspiring leaders?
Speaker 2:Yeah, listen, I was not fortunate enough to go to the academy but I tell you two of my best friends did. I've heard all stories and so many of my shipmates in the Navy have told me those stories and I just enjoy them. Td Smyers was class of 84, retired as a Navy captain, ran track at the Academy and had a record there that held for 18 years. Another friend of mine, dave Flieger, best friend from high school, went to the Academy. Eyesight went bad, got a cross commission into the Air Force and ended up flying B-52s out of Minot, north Dakota. That was his punishment for going into the Air Force, but he's now a lawyer. But back to the point, both of them are great Academy graduates who have told me about the stories within the walls of Bancroft Hall and on that beautiful campus and sure look as a midshipman.
Speaker 2:In Chapel Hill I remember standing on the AstroTurf field with the gunnery sergeant yelling and screaming hotter than blazes. Nothing compared to being at the academy. But in my own little microcosm of being in a uniform at a liberal arts school at Chapel Hill, still having people look at you, and this guy picked me out, gunny Klonowski. He picked me out to yell at me constantly and I was like Gunny, why are you yelling at me all the time? I didn't get it and I called my dad. I said, dad, I think I'm going to quit. I mean, I didn't come here to put up with this BS because if I'd wanted to do this, I would have gone to the Civil War, I would have gone to the Academy, right, I don't want this. And Dad said, stick in there, right? And the funny thing is that Gunny called me into his office that Thursday or Friday to yell at me. He made me stand at parade, rest and watch motivational films of the Marines attacking Iwo Jima, and then he'd asked me if I'd come to my senses yet, because he had a red name tag on his desk that had my last name on it. You know what that means, grant. As a midshipman, if you've got a red name tag, you're a Marine option.
Speaker 2:And I said, gunny, I said why are you picking on me? And he said who do you want me to pick on? I said, how about my buddy, johnny Hearn? He's right, you know he's. The next day, me and Johnny were standing side by side getting yelled out by the gunny. And what a wonderful time. And there were clearly times as an aide and I talk about one of them in the book when I even got the car stuck with the admiral in it. I mean there's plenty of opportunity to panic when that happens for him or for me, but you just can't do that. You know you've got to channel that energy into something positive. And how do I get out of this situation?
Speaker 1:And, like I was saying, repetition is really important in that field, right, because those are real human emotion, right, like the physiological response to panic is something you have to get used to. Right and being able to still have logic prevail and be a thinker in that state of kind of fight or flight, right, very difficult, especially as a JO right Very difficult.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. Again, it's something that you continue to grow and learn on. But, again, that's why these experiences are so important, because it's one more repetition right, it's another repetition of overcoming failure, of facing adversity, of navigating and handling those situations of high stress, high pressure moments, right when panic can. Again, like you were saying earlier, again you can go two paths right when you're put in this situation, and you know for young leaders to have repetitions of that. So that way again, because your panic situations as a J-O are going to be very different than your panic situations as a commanding officer or as the CEO of a company right.
Speaker 1:Like those, panic situations are a little higher stakes. So again it comes down to making sure you have the repetitions to be able to be logically inclined in those moments.
Speaker 2:Yeah, take a deep breath, right, and I learned this just in the past 10 or 15 years. Don't let the amygdala hijack, take over. Just a couple of seconds, take a breath, figure out the path to success rather than panicking. And then the other thing that we talk about a lot and I know this is huge at the Academy and as a JO it's just the teamwork, right. Nobody wants to be in the room, or on the p3 or in the f18 two-seater, that is, or on the deck the quarter deck of someone who's freaking out and panicking.
Speaker 1:You know that's not a good trait of a leadership, of a leader and I want to follow that path, actually, because one of your next lessons is actually all about being a great team player, which is something I talk about constantly as well, but do you mind sharing with us, in your opinion, what being a great team player means to you and the impact it can have on an organization when you're filled with people who are great team players?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the organization can go so much further. And, grant, you recognize this because of your time doing collegiate sports. I didn't do sports, but I figured it out pretty quickly in the corporate world and I did in the Navy too. Right, everybody wants to work with a team player, somebody who helps others along the way. And the neat thing is, if you help others build that team, you go a lot further and they're going to help you right, if you each want the other to succeed, it's just wonderful and the team as a unit moves so much further. The morale is so much better. Right, everybody enjoys work. You enjoy each other, not only at work, but socially. You enjoy being with other people. So I think that's just a huge thing of a leader, because when you're looking around the room, the person that's a team player is the one you want to be the team leader ultimately. The captain, right? The captain of the basketball team 100%, right, 100%.
Speaker 1:And again, I think that's something that's critical. Right, is being a great team player and it's something that's funny because I watch as any normal weird person would do watch Simon S sinek video, youtube videos in my free time, just talking about life and leadership. Right, and you know, one of his conversations is is all about that organization and people who are great team players and have the trust of an organization and they're like, hey, when you walk into any organization, right, if you were to ask like hey, who's who's the best team player? Right, who's like everyone, immediately is right and be like it's that person? Right, and at the same time, and you're like who, who? I never cuss on this on this show but like who's the asshole? Right, like who's who's the jerk?
Speaker 1:Everyone also is going to be like unanimous, right, unanimous so, but but again, it's really important because of that to be a great team player. Again, these are the separators and these are conscious actions. Right, it's not just 100% personality based. These are things that you can control, right, and so it's just so important to take advantage of those and you talk about and it goes back to even the conversations and the scuttlebutt and all these different things is your reputation matters and the Navy is really small, right? And if you are known as someone who's a great team player, right, that that is just going to garner so much support for you as you go through the process as well, like they're going to be people who are going to want to take care of you, because they know that you're going to do the same, right? Yeah?
Speaker 2:absolutely. I think you hit on something. Everybody thinks the Navy is so big, but we both know that once you figure out what your warfare specialty is going to be, and wherever you go, you're going to see the same people and those people are going to go to some other ship and then a year or two later they're either going to be ahead of you or next to you or below you and they're going to remember you and it's the same. You know. I remember. You know, when I was trying to figure out whether to transfer into the reserves, you know I was complaining to my sister about you know. Well, I'm seeing this and I'm seeing that in the Navy and I love the Navy, like you, but I just don't know if I want to be doing this. And my daughter I'm sorry, my sister, who was working for Bank of America at the time, says what makes you think that's any different in the corporate world? It's the same thing, the same precepts, which is something I say through the book.
Speaker 2:And you know your basketball career. You'll notice in the book, under the team player section, there's one heading that says point to the assist. And if you know basketball, I went to Chapel Hill. I was there when Michael Jordan was there, I saw it. But what did Dean Smith teach his players when they scored off an assist? They always point to the assist. That is a team player, and I don't say that in the book, but the heading is there just for that reason. How cool is it to acknowledge your success based on what somebody else has done for you? That's a team player.
Speaker 1:A team player. I love it and I'm glad you brought that up, because even today, I'm so glad that that teaching made its way into basketball. Like that's so commonplace now. Right, it's like anytime you score right, like it's like it's a point and it's acknowledgement to the guy who assisted, assisted you right, and say hey, like, thank you, right, like that happened because of you, right, absolutely, which is which is really cool. And obviously I love basketball references. I'm a basketball fan.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I love Carolina basketball. Well, that's the other thing. The pointing to the assist is exactly what we're talking about. I mentioned this. In it Somebody would say, oh, mark did a great job. Well, guess what? The week later I'd be in a meeting and say, oh, that person did a great job. And it just fuels friendship and morale and the teamness of getting things done.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Shifting to some of the last couple lessons that you have in the book and there are plenty more in the book than what we've touched on. I've kind of just highlighted some of the ones that resonated most with me and were most interesting to bring up in this format, and I'm especially excited to talk about this one because it's something that's really interesting. I've actually talked about the idea of loyalty before and integrity, and I kind of have a hot take Sometimes I get a bad taste of in my mouth with the word loyalty, because it feels to me like it's this idea of like blind loyalty to a person versus like we're saying the integrity to ideals and if we both have integrity to something right, like then we're going to be operating in the same way. But do you mind talking about how those two ideas of loyalty and integrity in your mind, how they integrate together right, and so I'd love to hear your thoughts on it and why you think it's so important again in the development of a young leader.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's. That's. That's great because it is a struggle, right. There's this push pull and someone might criticize a junior officer. Well, you're too loyal to so-and-so, you're too loyal to that person.
Speaker 2:And I say, in the military and in the civilian world, you should be loyal to your employer and you should be loyal to your boss. I mean, that's part of the confidential and trusting relationship that the boss or the company has with you. And if you get to the point that you can't do that, it's time to go. Go somewhere else, do something else. But I know this very well because, reading the audio book, this sentence stuck out with me is integrity always trumps loyalty, right.
Speaker 2:And the same Lieutenant Commander who became an Admiral Jag is in the book and I don't think he minds me mentioning his name Lieutenant Commander Hank Malenango. At the time, admiral Malenango, he told me I let him read the manuscript and he says you know what, in that section I think you missed the mark. You've got to strengthen the integrity component. Because he knew that's what I was trying to say. You don't blindly follow somebody who's leading you down a path that's doing something illegal or immoral but at the same time, if it's just their judgment, you might not necessarily agree with it, you should be loyal to them and carry out the plan of the day, as we say, right.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Right and it's it's a, it is right, it's really important and requires a little bit of subjectivity as well, of like, again, what things do you just not agree with versus what things are quite literally like wrong, right, from a, from a morality standpoint, from an integrity standpoint, right, and those were the. You know, those things come about and I agree, right, like they're going to be. Plenty of times, you know, we talk about case studies at the, at the Naval Academy, plead leadership in your classes. Right, they're going to come and talk about gaming the XO. Right Like. A lot of times you can just not agree with XO and just blame him. Right, it's like, oh no, the XO told us to do this. I don't agree with it. Right, like that, you ain't being loyal to the command there. Right, like that's a, that's a bad spot.
Speaker 1:And again, now, if the XO is telling you to do in more like wrong things, right, that's again, that's where the integrity piece comes in. But I really like how you frame that Because, again, I do think, in the right context, both things are so tremendously important and I love that. You highlighted again that at every moment in time, integrity will trump loyalty. Right Like, integrity is. That is that core again the adherence to the core values. It's aligning your actions to your values consistently, day in and day out, and so I love that chapter. I thought it was a really a really cool in-depth discussion about those two topics, right, and what those two words mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it kills me when I see phenomenal officers and we see them all the time Grant, we see Academy guys, ROTC guys, OCS folks who make it to the top and for whatever reason they strayed in somehow not loyalty or integrity, but straight up dishonesty has crept in and ruins just a phenomenal career. And I I scratched my head. And then you talk about case studies. You know, when I was in, the only thing I want I wanted to do two things as a squadron CO, I wanted to make sure I got through the command without anybody getting to the best of my ability, without anybody being injured or killed. So make sound decisions in flying those planes and sending them places. But, more importantly for me personally, professionally, never be on the front page of Navy Times for an issue that I would be embarrassed about Making, an immoral or a decision that you know you stray from integrity. And how do people get? There is always a head scratcher to me.
Speaker 1:I agree. We're going to flip the topic back to positive here to end it up, which I love, which is again you ended the book on probably my favorite thing, and again it's something that Chowda talks about a lot. It's something that Captain Jervie talks about a lot In an episode I talked with him which is this idea of always taking care of your people, and there's another chapter that you have in there which is about saying thank you and being grateful, and so there's a line in here and it's something you mentioned earlier in the episode. I heard it earlier in the episode which I loved is you said there are a couple of times where the Admiral could have fired me, but instead he helped me, right, and so can you talk about the importance of this idea of taking care of your people and what that really means and where this idea of constantly saying thank you and being grateful like plays into that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know the taking care of your people. You know the book is about lessons from the Admiral and I've written another article about. You know what I learned from the judge also another mentor in my life but the key person who I learned from first was my dad. My dad was a Navy captain and I know the folks that have students at the Academy now who are military or who also come from military families know this and I know a JO knows this. But my dad told me when I was commissioned and dad commissioned me at the Old Well, the University of North Carolina, chapel Hill, 1985, on Mother's Day, I remember it as clear as day and he gave me a sword, a sword that he had worn, and he said to me he said, mark, listen to your chiefs and take care of your sailors. That's all he told me.
Speaker 2:He didn't tell me anything else about being in the Navy. He said listen to your chiefs. He didn't say be on time. Loyalty, integrity. He just told me those two things and he said if you do those two things, you're going to do just fine. And wow, that is exactly what I did. And how many times did a chief save my tail right Because he liked me and because I wasn't a jerk and because I wasn't a one way, because I knew that as a young Lieutenant or JG or ensign, I didn't know more than the chief and I needed the chief to help educate me and I know Chowda mentioned that too. I mean, that's a huge philosophy that you better understand, and it's the same thing in the civilian world.
Speaker 1:It goes back to exactly what we were talking about earlier you have to be able to ask for help, right. What we were talking about earlier is you have to be able to ask for help right, and if you can go and have the humility to go to that relationship with the chief and be like we are a team, we are a partnership and I'm like I need your help, like there's so much stuff I don't know right, like I want to be a resource for you as well, I want to be an advocate in the wardroom, I want to be able to, like again, help run this division, but also like there's a lot that I that I need from you, and like even just discovering life as a junior officer. I think this is something that's really interesting. I had a conversation with this guy, anthony Amato, who was the command master chief of the USS John Warner when I was deploying and you know now he's over at squadron one as the squadron CMC and he's just like dynamics and multiple relationships between a JO and a chief, and you know his thing was just 100 percent.
Speaker 1:Again, what it comes down to is he's like I want to see you succeed, I want to help you, but you need to be open to it. Right, like this is a two way street where we have to work together. And like I will, I will teach you. And it's so funny because, again, his thing is really interesting, because it kind of catches people by ear when he says it. He's like we need to treat junior officers like junior sailors from a personal aspect, because it's a 22-year-old person who's never been on a ship before and they're walking around with no idea what's going on. They've never received an LES, they've never had something go wrong with their pay, they've never dealt with a rental lease agreement or purchasing a home. Like there's so many things about life that they've never experienced that like a chief is going to have to help them with. Right, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Chief, I don't know what I'm doing here and they'll do that. And the neat thing about what we call the goat locker in the Navy. The neat thing about the chiefs all the way up to the master chiefs, because when I was a command CO in your ear, if they like you and you've been good to them, hey, skipper, you might want to think about this. Hey, lt, you know they don't call you Lieutenant. Hey, lt, you know, next time you're standing watch you might want to do this. And when I was a midshipman I mentioned this in the book.
Speaker 2:You know, on a midshipman cruise, with some academy folks falling asleep up at the doing the watch, at you know, zero three hundred, a chief quartermaster comes over. He says, hey, midshipman, drink this. And it's a cup of coffee. And I've been drinking coffee ever since. But he knew that I was getting ready to get in trouble because here I am, you're not supposed to fall asleep on the watch, be it at the academy or as a jail or as a midshipman. And the chief saw me and saved my tail by giving me a cup of coffee.
Speaker 1:And you will never find more people falling asleep, standing up, than you do in the military.
Speaker 2:It's wildly impressive, or sleeping anywhere. I mean I can sleep. People are like how can you fall asleep there? I say, look, I can fall asleep anywhere. Any kind of noise you know anywhere, based on my time in the Navy.
Speaker 1:All right, well, mark, thank you so much for taking the time to share your insight about this book. One last thing before we get ready to wrap up here, which would be what's your best recruiting pitch for why young men and women should consider a naval education and career in the military, and what these lessons meant to you and why other people should pursue this path.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I tell people this all the time and you hit on it earlier, grant there's no better feeling than service. Right, you might not be the highest paid, you might work longer hours than anybody else, but there's no better feeling than serving your country or serving others. So that's sort of the intangible but very prideful component. You know, there's that great quote at the Navy Memorial where you know you think about all the great things you've done in your life. The greatest thing I did was I don't remember exactly but I think it was Kennedy said.
Speaker 2:You know, I served the United States Navy and then, secondarily and more practically speaking, there's no better way to start, right, you want to go all the old slogan, join the Navy and see the world still true today. The experiences, the leadership, what you get handed to you so quickly, so fast, the people. I have yet to find that camaraderie in anywhere, in law firms and major corporations anywhere else. You cannot replicate it. Be it you do six or seven years, like me and you, and then transfer to the civilian world. There's no better place to start than, I would say, the Navy. I guess I could broaden it to say the Armed Forces, but we're going to stick on this podcast to the Navy.
Speaker 1:And that's what I'm going to do? Absolutely no, I love every bit of that. I'm going to take 30 seconds just to highlight that again. Which the service to others, to me especially, is such a unique, wildly cool piece right. Service to nation 100%. That's what you're going to be doing, the mission of your unit, et cetera. But there is no better opportunity to make a positive impact in people's lives than being a military junior officer. Right the day you graduate as a 22-year-old or 23-year year old, there are going to be 10 to 15 people who are looking at you for you to help them and you are going to have the rank and authority and ability, if you choose, to invest in those relationships, to genuinely make a positive impact in those people's lives. At what point do you get to do that as a 22 or 23 year old elsewhere? Really, like you, you don't right, you don't? You know.
Speaker 2:I can't think of one one one civilian job that allows you that much responsibility to impact people's lives, like you said, and then to feel really, really good about it. Right, it's just a wonderful feeling.
Speaker 1:There's a real sense of fulfillment, so it's beautiful. Well, mark, thank you so much again for taking the time today. I'll turn it over to you If you have any last words or thoughts that you want to leave with the audience. Otherwise, thank you so much for being here and sharing your insight and wisdom.
Speaker 2:No, listen. I'll just close by saying thank you to the midshipmen and to the parents who are listening, because you really have taken the call for service and it's volunteer service right. No one told you to do it, you're just doing it on your own and really appreciate Grant the opportunity of being on this podcast. I can't wait to hear it and thank you again for having me Really appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And again, for anyone who is listening or watching here, lessons from the Admiral, it comes out Tuesday, january 28th, so if you want to order a copy, make sure to do that. Again, mark, thank you so much for being on here and sharing your wisdom and insight with a couple of C stories. The best way to do it. It's the best way to do it, absolutely. So appreciate it. Thank you all so much. It's the Academy Insider audience. Please reach out if you have any questions. It's always a pleasure and I look forward to helping you, however I can. So feel free to reach out, thank you. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Academy Insider Podcast. I really hope you liked it, enjoyed it and learned something during this time. If you did, please feel free to like and subscribe or leave a comment about the episode. We really appreciate to hear your feedback about everything and continue to make Academy Insider an amazing service that guides, serves and supports midshipmen, future midshipmen and their families. Thank you.
