The Academy Insider Podcast - Your Guide to The Naval Academy Experience
The mission of Academy Insider is to guide, serve, and support Midshipmen, future Midshipmen, and their families. Through the perspective of a community of former graduates and Naval Academy insiders, this podcast will help you learn about life at the United States Naval Academy in Annapolis. Through our shared experiences, Academy Insider guides families through the anxiety and frustration caused by lack of understanding, misinformation, and confusion. This platform is designed to better relationships between midshipmen and their loved ones. This podcast is not affiliated with the United States Naval Academy, the United States Navy or Department of Defense. The thoughts and opinions are exclusively those of your host and his guests.
The Academy Insider Podcast - Your Guide to The Naval Academy Experience
#081 Foreign Area Officers - the Hidden Gem of Military Officer Careers!
Captain Suzanna Brugler's journey from a small Ohio town to a distinguished career as a Foreign Area Officer (FAO) is nothing short of inspirational. Hear how her parents' visit to the Naval Academy ignited a passion that led her to Annapolis and beyond. As one of the pioneering women enrolling at the Academy in the late '90s, Suzanna has navigated a traditionally male-dominated institution with resilience and poise, offering invaluable insights into seizing leadership opportunities and embracing diverse career paths.
Join us as we unravel the complexity of the FAO role in the Navy. These global strategic operators are vital in crafting and executing international plans. Suzanna discusses the essential components of being a FAO, including language training and cultural immersion, and shares her on-the-ground experiences as the U.S. Naval Mission Chief in Colombia. Discover the intricate dance of international cooperation and the strategic importance of partnerships with allies in enhancing security efforts worldwide.
Aspiring to become a FAO? We've got you covered. Dive into the selection process, from mastering languages through the Defense Language Institute to understanding the Navy's strategic needs. The episode also highlights the unique career transitions available to Naval Academy graduates, underscoring the importance of gaining operational experience before embracing a FAO role. Suzanna offers guidance for midshipmen pondering this path, emphasizing networking and strategic career moves to set themselves on a successful trajectory. Whether you're interested in a military career or just curious about the inner workings of international military operations, this episode is packed with stories, advice, and a look at the future for naval officers.
The mission of Academy Insider is to guide, serve, and support Midshipmen, future Midshipmen, and their families.
Grant Vermeer your host is the person who started it all. He is the founder of Academy Insider and the host of The Academy Insider podcast and the USNA Property Network Podcast. He was a recruited athlete which brought him to Annapolis where he was a four year member of the varsity basketball team. He was a cyber operations major and commissioned into the Cryptologic Warfare Community. He was stationed at Fort Meade and supported the Subsurface Direct Support mission.
He separated from the Navy in 2023 and now owns The Vermeer Group, a boutique residential real estate company that specializes in serving the United States Naval Academy community PCSing to California & Texas.
We are here to be your guide through the USNA experience.
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Welcome to Season 2 of the Academy Insider Podcast. Academy Insider is a 501c3 nonprofit organization that serves midshipmen, future midshipmen and their families. At its core, this podcast is designed to bring together a community of Naval Academy graduates and those affiliated with the United States Naval Academy in order to tell stories and provide a little bit of insight into what life at the Naval Academy is really like. I hope you enjoy it. Thank you so much for listening and reach out if you ever have any questions. Hey everyone, and welcome back to the Academy Insider podcast. If you are a fan of Academy Insider, this is another one of these episodes that you're going to absolutely love, because we get to highlight all the cool things that can be the results of going to the Naval Academy, being an officer in the armed services and all the opportunities that exist within the career field. And so and today I'm joined by Captain Susanna Brugler, who is a Naval Academy graduate herself, and she's a what we call a FAO, a foreign area officer FAO she's currently stationed in Columbia, working and interfacing with the Columbia Navy, and these are the cool opportunities that exist. So if you're like FAO I've never heard of that, I have no idea what it is, then you're going to love this episode because we're going to highlight what a Feo is, what they do, the training process they go through, from language training to cultural immersion, to the jobs that they can do, what that means for their career and life, and just all of the above. It's awesome. No-transcript them answered Otherwise. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Enjoy the listen. Thank you so much and have a good day.
Speaker 1:The Academy Insider Podcast is sponsored by the Vermeer Group, a residential real estate company that serves the United States Naval Academy community and other select clientele in both California and Texas. If I can ever answer a real estate related question for you or connect you with a trusted Academy affiliated agent in the market which you're in, please reach out to me directly at grant at the Vermeer groupcom. You can also reach out to me on my LinkedIn page, grant Premier, and I'd be happy to respond to you there. Thank you so much, and now let's get back to the episode.
Speaker 1:All right, hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Academy Insider Podcast. Susanna, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today. I'm so excited to cover what I think is going to be a really interesting topic that a lot of people likely don't know about, which is the Foreign Area Officer Program. But before we get there, do you mind giving us a little bit of background about where you're from, how you ended up at the Naval Academy, a little bit about your career in the Navy and now currently where you're at taking this interview, quite literally from Bogota, colombia.
Speaker 2:Yes, well, grant, thank you so much for inviting me to be on your podcast. I've been following you for several months now and I feel honored to be here, so thank you again. Yes, I am an academy grad. I graduated in 1998, so I'm probably an old-timer for you, although you have had a couple of old-timers on.
Speaker 2:I got interested in the Naval Academy because my parents are both educators and they went on a recruiter's visit to the Naval Academy. My dad was teaching high school, my mother was a guidance counselor at the time and I was in seventh grade. I was very impressionable and I'm from a small town in Ohio. It's a small town called Defiance of Northwest Ohio. So when they came home from Annapolis and they told seventh grade Susanna Brugler about the Naval Academy, they had described it to me like it was summer camp. So I was intrigued and they talked about the leadership potential, the leadership opportunities, they talked about serving in the Navy, all of these things.
Speaker 2:That were brand new concepts to me, because I'm from midtown America. I'm from a place America I'm from, you know, a place where there is no Navy. So, yeah, I found it intriguing and I was very curious. So it was something that I actually had been working toward and, sure enough, by the time I graduated from high school, I had a rather unique entry Well, not completely unique, but a different entry to the Naval Academy. I was first a foundation student and I know you've had NAP students. I'm not sure if you've had foundation students.
Speaker 1:We haven't done a foundation student yet, but I'm excited to dive deep into that in another episode. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a wonderful program where, if you're maybe academically qualified but you could bone up on a couple of subjects, but not necessarily pegged for for naps for the Naval Academy of Shreveport School in Newport. They have an alternate venue or an alternate means to get into the Naval Academy and that is the foundation program. A lot of athletes, you know, if you're in kind of athletics like maybe sailing or crew, or I know a lot of football players, tend to go to naps, but anyway. So that was an opportunity that was offered to me and I and I jumped at it, I took it in a heartbeat and so I went to the Perky Omen school, which is a small prep school in Pennsburg, pennsylvania, and I was a postgraduate student there. And after I graduated from that, from that year of a postgraduate year, then I went to the Naval Academy.
Speaker 1:So that and how was your, your parents self-described summer camp? How?
Speaker 2:was it? Yeah, yeah, I think maybe after like one hour of induction day of I day, I quickly realized that the summer, that they really had a warped sense of what summer camp was, if that was what summer camp.
Speaker 2:They thought it was like no, but it yeah, it was. You know my years at the naval academy. So I, you know this was in the summer of 1994 and women had not yet attended the service academies 20 years yet. So it was, I really feel, like I had kind of a bridge generation where we kind of went from. I mean, I think there were 14% women who were there when I was there and I understand now there's maybe closer to 30%.
Speaker 2:So, there really was an environment, a brand new environment for me. I was not used to being such a minority, so that was a real adjustment. It was yeah, I mean it ended up in the end being, you know, because I persevered like the rest of us. You know, I think a lot of people that you've had on your podcast say, well, everybody else was doing the same thing. So, you know, I was able to hang in there, and that's really what it was like for me too. It was no different you know, you know commissions.
Speaker 2:Oh, sorry, sorry, no, I just said that, like you know, my shipmates, my classmates from the class of 1998, you know that's how we got through is that we had each other?
Speaker 1:No, 100%. And so you make it through with the class of 98 and then you commission into what community?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I became a surface warfare officer and, interestingly enough, I was really interested. I knew by then that I was interested in becoming a public affairs officer and I was an English major at the Naval Academy. I was a Spanish minor and I had done an internship while I was a midshipman. One summer I had done an internship at the public affairs officer at the Naval Academy no-transcript internship and I said yes. So you know, for the parents out there, for the midshipmen candidates out there, the great thing about the Naval Academy is that there's so many people who look after you and are helping to guide you Like you. There's so many mentors there. It's really just an incredible environment to meet new people and people who are genuinely interested in your well-building and want to see you succeed and will help you do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%. And so how was your time as a SWO? Yeah, did you enjoy being a SWO before that transfer, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I forgot about that. Well, and being a SWO, I mean, while I really wanted to be a public affairs officer, but I will tell you, being a surface warfare officer for my entire career up until today is the foundation of who I am as a leader, who I am as a naval officer. It was so vital to my success today, so I do want to stress that. So the surface warfare officer community selected me that's how I describe it because there really was no other. I wasn't interested in flying, women couldn't serve on submarines then. So it was yeah, it was surface warfare officer, and I was of the mindset, well, if I'm going to do something, I knew my goal was to lateral transfer to public affairs. But if I thought, if I'm going to do something, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to go big or go home.
Speaker 2:So I selected a cruiser out of Yokosuka, japan. I was on USS Mobile Bay CG-53. I think she just decommissioned a year ago, but yeah, I. I think she just decommissioned a year ago, but yeah, I was the first lieutenant, I was the fourth, the fourth woman to report to that ship in the spring of 1999. So it was probably the hardest two years of my life. I'm not gonna you know. But again, grant, when you're talking to me, you know I've reluctantly accepted that I'm a dinosaur now in the Navy, even though I don't feel like it. I definitely don't feel like I'm a dinosaur now in the Navy, even though I don't feel like it?
Speaker 2:I definitely don't feel like I'm a dinosaur, but I know that I am. I mean, this was back when women were first integrating our combatant platforms.
Speaker 2:I was the fourth, and for an entire year I was one of four women. And then after that first year we integrated the crew, so the enlisted personnel, and once we did that we brought a board I don't know between 20 and 30. I don't know the exact number, but it made life on board as one of the women just much easier, because that microscope wasn't only on the four officers that happened to be just selected to start the integration.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And you eventually make your shift to becoming a PAO and then and then you get out and enter into the reserves. So what was that process of getting out of the reserves and then kind of shifting almost into again? What we'll say is, like the main emphasis of this episode, which is the FAO program, how did you go from being a reservist to back active duty, doing what you're doing now as a foreign area officer?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I served as a public affairs officer. I laterally transferred after my first division officer on my ship and I had a rather successful public affairs career and I served for about, I think, 12 and a half years, at the juncture when I had decided to leave active duty and to go into the reserves, part of the reason I think I just had. I was in my early thirties and I definitely had, you know, some different things that I had wanted to accomplish in my life. One of them was to learn a foreign language, and so what I did when I left active duty was I followed an Olmstead scholar to Cádiz, spain, and I lived in Spain for a year as a student. So I tell people I sort of developed a homespun Olmstead program. I found a way to live in Spain, to take classes at the university and I started my reserve career and during that time I was the Africa Partnership Station Public Affairs Officer in my reserve opportunities.
Speaker 2:So with a year that I lived in Cadiz, I spent about two and a half months traveling in Kenya, tanzania, Mozambique, mauritius, so that was on the east coast of Spain or, I'm sorry, of Africa, and that's kind of what really began the transition for me to really start thinking of foreign area officer as an opportunity, as something that I really kind of wanted to pursue, and unfortunately, at that time, there was not yet a reserve foreign area officer program.
Speaker 2:So I thought, oh great, I just left the active duty, where they do have a foreign area officer program, and I'm a reservist. But I knew that the Navy was trying to develop a reserve for an area community and so, sure enough, fast forward maybe five years to 2016, 2017, the Navy had indeed stood up, or was starting to stand up, a foreign area officer reserve community, and they held two boards over the course of two years. I didn't get selected the first board, but I did get selected the second board, so I'm one of the first reservists who started to build what's now a rather robust program in the Navy Reserve foreign area officer community, so really proud of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so cool. And when we reference the foreign area officer in general and program, what is it? Do you mind giving us a high level overview? Again? We talk about we use these terms. Are we talking about a service warfare officer? You're on a ship. We talk about public affairs officer. You're out there controlling messaging and media and communication, both internally and externally. Right, yeah, what's a foreign area officer and what do they do?
Speaker 2:What's a foreign area officer and what do they do? What's the program? Well, that's a great question because it's a very I would say, a rather niche area, but it's a very important area. So foreign area officers are also referred to as FAOs. We're the Navy's globally embedded strategic operators. We develop and lead integrated plans and international operations to deliver strategic effects.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, that sounds like a lot of blah, blah, blah. What do you really do? Well, faos live downrange and we work directly with our partner nations. We have three lines of effort. The first one is the defense attache service, the second one is the security cooperation enterprise and the third one is fleet and major staff. So I'll go over those three in just a moment. So, defense attache service we serve as attaches around the world, and what attaches are are? They're basically accredited diplomats that lead in policy and strategy and information. So they work with US country teams. They sometimes work, or they do work, out of US embassies and they, you know, if you ever are, you know, at an event and you see somebody who's wearing this really large epaulette like really big, not a flag- yeah, not a flag, but a big one.
Speaker 1:Those are attaches.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, that's a very unique opportunity to represent the United States around the world and, if you're anything like me, it's exciting, it's adventurous, it is. I just I'm so proud of what I do because I get to represent my country in foreign countries and I just think that's the coolest thing. So that kind of covers really the information in the communications environment on a deeply personal level. That's what attaches do in specifically working with our partner nations. Security cooperation is actually what I do right now.
Speaker 2:I'm the US Naval Mission Chief to Bogota, colombia, so I'm in charge of an office of about 15 people. In that office I have three officers. I have one Marine Corps officer who is my deputy, I have a Coast Guard liaison officer and I have an O-4 who is the maritime operations planner 04, who is the Maritime Operations Planner and what security cooperation is. It's different programs and different opportunities that the US has to work with a partner nation, everything from foreign military sales to foreign military funding, to international military education and training. So these are all incredibly important programs for our partner nations in the integration and development. So if I'm in Colombia now and say we have this case study where we actually need to work cooperatively in the information environment. So my office would do an assessment and you know let's say it was on riverine boats we do an assessment and we find a way. Ok, how are we going to coordinate with the Colombian Navy or the Colombian Marine Corps when we're working in the riverine environment?
Speaker 2:So we'll make an assessment, we'll figure out what programs, what kind of hardware we would need to in order to work interoperably, and then we would go ahead and find a way to finance that, whether the host nation actually buys the equipment from the United States or whether we actually do fund programs so that our partners have the capability to work with us. So that's just an example of the impact that we have to ensure that these partners around the world, that we're able to work with them closely, that we're able to do strategic operations and strategic work in the operational environment.
Speaker 1:So in terms of we were talking about that security cooperation what does that mean, especially in terms of your job and interaction with the Colombian Navy? How much of your time are you spending out kind of like in the field, interacting and cooperating with, you know, colombian military leadership? And then specifically in this role like, what is the United States relationship with the Colombian Navy and what initiatives are you guys working on?
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you for asking that question. I think it's a great one and it's. I work with the Colombian Navy every single day, nearly every day that I'm living here in Bogota, colombia. In fact I have an office. I'm completely embedded with the Colombian Navy. My office is in the Fortaleza. The Fortaleza is basically the Colombians version of the Pentagon. So when I go to work, every day I show up at the Fortaleza. I have an office there.
Speaker 2:That's where my staff works and every day I am certainly communicating with the Colombian Navy, if not, you know, having meetings. So I meet with everybody from really the chief of the Colombian Navy all the way down. I mean having meetings so I meet with everybody from really the chief of the Columbia Navy all the way down. I mean, for my level, I usually go work with fellow 06s. That's kind of, you know, as the Naval Mission Chief, I'm kind of like at the flight officer 06 level. That's where I do a lot of my coordination, kind of at the decision-making level. But my the officers in my office, you know they will work with everybody in the Colombian Navy who is tasked with, you know, taking advantage of our programs or coordinating with us in order foreign land, speaking a language that might not be your first language Spanish definitely isn't my first language and really interacting on a human level with our partner nations.
Speaker 1:That's what we do into the language piece now, because that was going to be my follow-up is, if you're quite literally engaging daily with Colombian military leadership like I'm sure a lot of that is done in Spanish Like what is the language part of this program and how does the Navy prepare you to go there Like you're, just like it's not like they're, you become a fail and they just send you to Columbia on day one right Like how is?
Speaker 1:what's kind of the process in the schooling pipeline when it comes to this program to get you ready to be doing what you're doing?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So in the Navy, and specifically for the foreign area officer community, it's not something that you can service, select right out of the Naval Academy or right after you're right out of your commissioning source. So the foreign area officer community is looking for, at a bare minimum, four to five years of service and your best opportunity if you think you're interested in this type of career field is to have that be warfare designator service. So coming from the surface warfare community, the submarine community, the aviation community, of course those communities will have to agree to let you go into the foreign area officer community and with lateral transfers it's kind of a dance on how you do that and it has to do with your year group and how our manning, overall manning in the Navy is fleshed out. But the soonest opportunity is at four or five years, really the sweet spot because we're looking with. We really want people who have a sound foundational understanding of what the Navy is, what it is we do, what our platforms are, because at the end of the day we do end up, you know, especially in security cooperation, servicing programs that you know, maybe for acquisition of aircraft I mean. So it's really important to have a good and solid understanding of the community warfare community where you came from. So a real sweet spot is approaching the 10-year mark. But what happens is we have in fact we have one out right now. We have a call for actually call for lateral transfer or call for applications. You take the D-Lab, the Defense Language, a aptitude battery, and we're looking for a score of 110. If you're around the 110 mark then you're probably going to be a good candidate to be able to learn and pick up a foreign language and then really looking for the right personality or for people who have kind of the characteristics of having the audacity and the interest of living overseas, of working with our partner nations, of building those relationships. And there's a board that we'll meet. It's usually chaired by a 06 foreign area officer, such as myself, and then there'll be maybe an 04 and 05 on the board, generally chaired by three people who are foreign area officers. They'll be maybe an 04 and 05 on the board, generally chaired by three people who are foreign area officers, and they go ahead and they screen the candidate and they select of. You know they have a rating system and it just really depends on. Every time we have the call for let all transfer. It happens twice a year and, yeah, that's how they're selected.
Speaker 2:So the training pipeline so if you say you're a classic SWO or aviator candidate, you get selected to be a foreign area officer, then generally, like, the typical pipeline of what we do is the Navy will send you to get your master's degree if you don't already have it. And we'd like to have a international relations-based master's degree. Typically it's at NPS or the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey and because the Defense Language Institute is also located in Monterey, it just makes it very smooth transition. You'll be assigned to region, you'll get your master's degree at NPS and then you'll get your language training, probably get Arabic. You know clearly somebody who is going to be assigned to South Com, like I am you'll get your Spanish and then from there, once you have those things, the international relations master's degree, once you have your your language aptitude and the score or the way we test for language aptitude is by taking the DLPT or the defense language proficiency test and at a bare minimum we are looking for people who score a 2.2.
Speaker 2:So that's two in listening comprehension and a two in reading comprehension. But really when you get down range we want you to kind of get a little more proficient than what a 2.2 provides. A 2.2 is pretty good, but really to get really, you know, really have an understanding, to start to get that fluency we're looking for people to screen at three, three three, three, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:A couple couple questions before we move to the next spot. You mentioned the term D lab, which is like the language aptitude test. Yes, what like what? How do how is like the Nate or like the military, determining your aptitude to learn a language? Like what is? What does the test consist? Test consist of? And then kind of with that is, are you putting in preferences to work a specific region or learn a specific language? What is the difference between your performance on your aptitude to learn a language versus your preference of a region you want to go to?
Speaker 2:Boy, you're asking probing questions here, but I like them. So thanks for asking those, Grant. Yeah, so this is open source. But when you take the defense language aptitude battery, what it is is it's kind of made up languages where the military is testing you of how well you could potentially, how well your brain functions with the potential of picking up a language. So it's really gibberish languages that you'll be exposed to.
Speaker 2:You'll be listening, you might be reading something, but yeah, there's kind of no way to study for it because it's really testing your aptitude or your potential to learn a language. So the D-Lab, while it's important, it apparently is a great measurement or a great tool to kind of realize how well you will pick up a language. So if you score a really high score on the D-Lab, you might be pegged or you might be earmarked to be assigned to the Middle East, because Arabic is a very difficult language to pick up as a second language, or maybe even Eastern Europe, russia another strategic language or for China, if you don't have exposure to Mandarin, that would be something that you would be looked for. But I love your question because at the end of the day, it's the needs of the Navy. Where does the Navy need more foreign area officers?
Speaker 2:So, without having had a deep discussion with our detailer, I would say the Indo-Pacific region is a hotbed of where we really kind of need foreign area officers right now. But you never know, things change. That's why we have FAOs around the world who work in the seams. Because, especially when you consider strategic competition, where are strategic competitors, mainly China and Russia? Where are they exerting their influence? It's everywhere. It's around the world. That's why we have FAOs stationed around the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, absolutely. And that's super interesting because when we talk about regions now again kind of this whole process you talk about South Com, a region where there are multiple countries that speak the same language. Besides Brazil, every country in South America is a Spanish-speaking country. But if we're talking about Indo-Pacom or the Indo-Pacific, there are countries that do not speak the same language at all. Probably thousands, yeah, there are countries that do not speak the same language at all. So, like do you get pigeonholed to again just a region? Like how do you go from region to language, if that makes sense, and then like actually specified what language you're going to be learning and what country you're going to be?
Speaker 2:supporting. Yeah, again, at the end of the day, and the Foreign Area Officer community really does try to detail or assign their FAOs to the language and region that they are trained up on. But at the end of the day the needs of the Navy went out. And that kind of brings me to the third LOE or line of effort that I really didn't go into discussing, and that is fee and major staff. So this is the third role that FAOs serve.
Speaker 2:It's actually a very critical I would sometimes argue could potentially be the most critical line of effort that we serve in, because that's how we influence our senior leaders, that's how we influence people like the chief of naval operations, the VCNO, all the staff that's at the op-nav level. But going into the fleets, where your fleet commanders are the ones that are really in charge of operations, the foreign area officers oftentimes are their N5s, so they're the ones that are specifically charged with advising them strategically and it's such an exciting role. I mean, if you haven't noticed, I really love what I do and I love what they do. We're so vital to how the Navy functions today, being a global force, and especially in the strategic competition environment, we are the glue that kind of ties our tactics and our operations to what our leaders want us to do strategically. That's what Fayots do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's so cool because it's even more than language which. I think is really interesting Because you're not just like, you're not a translator, no, You're there to understand the culture and be an advisor to the staff, right Like whether that be with the security cooperation and engagement with, like actual Columbia Navy, or as an advisor to the staff, right Like whether that be with the security cooperation and engagement with, like actual Columbia Navy or as an advisor to Southcom right or the Admiral, and so can you talk a little bit on like the actual cultural immersion piece of the FAO program and how again FAO's just just talking about like all the cool opportunities and jobs you do through the FAO training pipeline and process to to get an understanding of regions on top of like your language training.
Speaker 2:Sure, sure. And again, going back to your last question, just to kind of put a bow on it so we really do try to focus on a specific region, but we're just about to break into this new concept of where we'll have a major region and a minor region, so it gives us the flexibility to specialize in more than one region. And if you look at my career, I mean I have served in the US Fifth Fleet in Bahrain. I was the Nassau Liaison Officer at the US Embassy there. So I have experience, you know, in the Middle East, but my language is Spanish and I'm serving in Colombia now. So really, I think Colombia is going to be my major region. But to make things even more interesting, if you will, as a reservist and we didn't even talk about this I'm and my career, but I did manage to go back onto permanent active duty and actually next December not this December, but next December I will have completed my 20 years total of active duty service, even though I've been commissioned, for it'll be 27 years by then, but I as a reservist, thank you, thank you. As a reservist, I served as a Africa regional foreign area officer. So, yeah, this concept of regions, I don't want to get the conversation too bogged down on.
Speaker 2:You know being specialized in a region, but you're right, we do have programs where we learn about our regions. One of them is through the George Washington Elliott School. We have a wonderful opportunity where we really get to study and we get to speak to experts from our regions, professors, people from think tanks and we take about five days roughly a week where we kind of do a deep dive on our region and what the issues are and how they might apply to our own country or, more broadly, to the region that we're assigned to. Another way is something we call in-region training. It is part of the training pipeline. It's not guaranteed that you'll be able to do it, but if there's room within your career path, you might be assigned.
Speaker 2:For example, somebody who would be coming to Columbia might get an assignment in Chile and get to practice their Spanish in Chile, kind of get you know, get exposed to a different country in the region, and then they might ultimately end up, you know, at the US military group in Bogota. So it's yeah, it's, and we're kind of hitting on another. Another characteristic of being a foreign area officer that I love, which is continual learning. We are continual learners officer. That I love, which is continual learning. We are continual learners. We are constantly encouraged and exposed to opportunities and programs where we really stretch our minds, where we really stretch our intellect, but it's all centered around strategic understanding of what the Navy is doing in our global environments around the world.
Speaker 1:Sure, and in terms of all this, again, continual learning and I got a lot of that is through this immersion and being there. And so when we're talking about, like your actual life impact for lack of a better term what's kind of? Again, we talk in the Navy, a lot of the seashore rotation, right, you spend time out to sea, but then you come home as a FAO. Are you spending time back home in the United States or are you quite literally like hopping from Bahrain to Colombia to Chile and you're in a constant, almost like State Department type lifestyle where you're just abroad always?
Speaker 2:Like. What's that situation and dynamic like is that we really strive to kind of marry up the different opportunities and job openings that happen with the needs of our officers who are serving. So I'll give you an example I am in Bogota with my family. I have two young boys, a 10-year-old and a 7-year-old, and my husband is down here and my husband he's able to work remotely the three years that we're here in Colombia and we are actually applying for an assignment that is in Santiago, chile. So this is something that we are choosing to do partially, quite frankly, for our family, to give our boys the exposure of really getting a solid foundation of Spanish as their second language. And it happens career-wise. That would be a very good career step for me, aside from it being something that I'm really interested in.
Speaker 2:But generally we do have opportunities where, if you serve a tour downrange and you want to get yourself to the United States, you and your family or just yourself, if it's just yourself we do have billets that are, for example, at Fourth Fleet, at Third Fleet, at the Pentagon, with OPNAB. We have a lot of billets there. With NIFO, which is Navy International Programs Office, which is in the DC area. We have STRATCOM, tramscom, you name it. We've got positions and openings where we can get you back to the United States.
Speaker 1:That's so cool and so, along that path, kind of steering this discussion a little bit into the career paths and options for FAOs you use this term billet right, like your job role or responsibility. What's the career progression factors when it comes to a FAO? Are you in the same role as an 04 as you would be as an 06? Like, what are the progressions? You progress through regions? Like, what does someone look at when you become a FAO? Are you capping at 06 or are there flag officers that are FAOs? Kind of like what's the career outlook as a FAO moving through this program?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So generally, if you become a FAO, you're generally going to transition at the senior 03, 04 level and what's interesting about our career field is you could serve for example, I'm a SCO chief is another name for what I do as the Naval Mission Chief. There are SCO chiefs that are 04s, there are SCO chiefs that are 05s, but Columbia is a huge partner nation for the United States. That's why my job is billeted as an O6 position. So, but we do have to answer your question.
Speaker 2:We do have stratification as far as a milestone billet, milestone tours, and so when you are an O4, O5, you need to screen into an 05 milestone billet and there is a there's actually a board that meets and decides of the 05 FAOs who is going to screen and make the cut so that they'll be assigned to a milestone billet, and those are more robust. There's more responsibilities in those positions and so once you graduate into the milestone billets, hopefully you'll do well. Then you have the future potential for advancement. And then we have O6 billets, which are just for O6s to fill. So our billets are stratified by the level of officer that you are, by your pay grade, basically.
Speaker 1:Very cool. Okay, uh, awesome, it's helpful. I love it again. I think this is like super fun, as people are like think, like not even knowing this may be an opportunity. That's like, what does this like mean for me? How do I progress and advance and do all those things, which is so cool. Yeah, I am just gonna bring it back just a tiny bit because I got so excited. We've removed this discussion in so many ways. Yeah, hypothetically, right In the situation I was starting to ask about the D-Lab because I was going to move into, eventually, the language training. Okay, for that, how much language training are you actually receiving by the Navy? Right? Like, when you get this, how much language are you actually learning and what's the pipeline to specifically learn your language?
Speaker 2:Okay, and again, great questions, grant, that you're how much language are you actually learning and what's the pipeline to specifically learn your language? Okay, and again, great questions, grant, that you're asking, and this might be an opportunity to open up the conversation a little more. Not everybody gets language training. Now, great example is I am in the South Com region. We have a. Actually there's a lot of people, the South Com region, we have a. Actually there's a lot of people.
Speaker 2:Actually, of my three officers who are in my office, all of them are native language Spanish speakers. I'm the only one who is native language English, so they didn't need language training. I mean, they already spoke Spanish I when I crossed over. And this is a little distinguisher for the Navy Reserve career field, before you become a FAO you have to reach that 2-2. On the DLPT you have to be a foreign language speaker on the reserve side before you can redesignate to foreign area officer Now, but on the active duty side it's completely different.
Speaker 2:We are looking to take those warfare designators and to train them to become foreign area officers. So the primary means that we do that is by sending them to the Defense Language Institute which I mentioned before in Monterey, so that and hopefully get the officer up to the minimum bar of 2-2, the trying to get them the aspirational score of getting a 3-3. And I think the highest you can get is something like a 4.4, if I'm not mistaken. But I mean we're talking about a very, very hard test. That I mean, if you speak a 4.4, you're pretty much completely fluent.
Speaker 1:Native yeah. You're pretty much native, but yeah, in that time in Monterey, like when we're talking about the time at nps plus dli, is this a one-year frame? Is this a two-year time frame? What's the rough?
Speaker 2:like yeah, commitment generally it's a one-year program to get your master's degree and then after that, depending. So spanish, for example, if it's still the way it's, it's a six months, as I understand, dli program. Again, I didn't learn spanish at dli, I learned it in spain. I am, I call it a self-imposed immersion, that's how I learned it. But, yeah, I think spanish is six months, but you can get up to like, I think up to 18 months and again, that's the more. That's the like mandarin, the russian, the yeah, the farsi, like you know. So it depends on I. I would imagine French might get a little more than six months. Maybe they get French would get nine months, but that's what dictates, like, the complexity of the language and probably baseline English. How hard is it for somebody to learn and you know this, but the minimum is six months.
Speaker 1:And what happens, kind of what happens if you don't reach a two, two right, like what happens if you go through this process and you and you can't do it I have known foreign area officers who, just like, really struggled with that language piece and, to be quite frank, I don't the the individual I'm thinking of, never made it beyond oh, four, and you know, sometimes, you know that's, sometimes that happens.
Speaker 2:But there's opportunity, the, the community we're really. We have what's called the language and gosh, it's called the LREC, the language region and education and culture. Yeah, and we have a whole component designed to assist.
Speaker 2:Fayots with their language and with their cultural development. And in fact, I am one where I have, after a year living in Bogota and I told you I am not a native language speaker, not a native Spanish speaker I did have my tutu when I arrived here After a year. I scored a three, two plus. So you see a progression. I live here now so I speak a lot more Spanish than I did when I was back in the United States, but I am taking tutoring to improve specifically my speaking, my Spanish language speaking.
Speaker 2:So a lot of the resources that are available to you as a FAO, they are individual, motivational based, but I really and knowing that I, I very well might stay down range I really want to improve my Spanish. I'm invested and, funnily enough, you know that is one of the indicators that will kind of almost virtually guarantee that you'll improve in your language skills is your personal motivation. So, yeah, I, I, if you know, if you see it, if you seek it, they will come. Or if you build it, if you seek it, they will come.
Speaker 2:Or no if you build it, they will come.
Speaker 1:If you build it, they'll come 100%.
Speaker 2:If you think it and if you aspire.
Speaker 1:You're going to manifest it. Yeah, 100%, the resources are there to make it happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. What's funny is I wish I kind of knew about this when I was in the Navy. That would have been pretty fun and cool. Like again, what's what's funny is I literally took 45 days of leave in transit when I was leaving my first command to my shore tour and I went down to Columbia and I spent literally 45 days in Medellin like taking Spanish lessons from like 8am to noon and then like just going out and talking to people and making friends and just trying to like improve my Spanish.
Speaker 1:Cause I always had this like deep interest in like wanting to learn another language and kind of immerse myself and get another cultural understanding and I was like, dang, I could have the Navy could have paid me to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's I mean, grant. That's exactly why I'm so happy that you're having me on today, because I want to get the word out that this is a career field. We have, I think, now around 450 officers on active duty. If you can think and I am not surprised with your career background that you might be interested in doing this. We need to get the word out that it is such a vitally important and we need to recruit top talent into this career field because what we do is so important in that relationship building and the working with the partner nations and the working with our senior leaders on the Navy and senior staff and, you know, helping them with their strategic problems, especially in the light of strategic competition and how we're going to kind of navigate the you know, the waters ahead.
Speaker 1:Sure, yeah, it 100%. I couldn't agree more and I think it's so cool and I love that we're doing this. And now to tackle a couple of the for lack of a better term some of the logistic questions, right, as people are like planning this and thinking if this is for them and again like what if I do it? And I love it, but like I have a family and they don't like being overseas all the time, like what is the service obligation that comes with being a FAO? Right, I assume most people who choose this path are like I'm excited about this and I want to make a career of it, but what happens if life situations changes? Like, at what point are they? Like how much of the service obligation is is mandated I'll put it that way for going through this program?
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, that's a great question. So we do kind of adhere to the education and training. So for graduate education you have a year of graduate school. I think it's like two for one. So one year would make a two-year obligation. On the back end, of course, with the language training, you add that onto it. So, yeah, if it's just something that doesn't work out for you, you would work with your detailer and you would work with the community manager and you would probably just signal to them hey, I'm not sure that this is something that I first see me and my family, or just myself, just me, doing in the long term. Are there any off ramps? And fortunately now there is an off ramp and that is to go into the reserve foreign area officer community. But, grant, your question actually reminded me of something that I wanted to make sure that I brought up during our conversation, and that is the SWOTCT, which stands for Tailored Career Transition.
Speaker 2:It is a relatively new program. We've had it for about a year, a year and a half now, and it is, I think, a fabulous opportunity for our surface warfare officers who screen for department head to kind of tee up a career if they think they're interested in being a foreign area officer when they can select to become a department head. Get that department head bonus. Get that leadership experience of serving as a department head head bonus. Get that leadership experience of serving as a department head. What happens is in the transition between their first and second department head tour, what we do if they're selected for this program is we train them to become a foreign area officer. So during that break is when we send them to NPS to get the graduate degree, if they don't already have it. We send them to DLI to get their language training so that they will have it. We get them that exposure to the community. And so after they serve their second department head tour, once they're done with that, then they lateral transfer into the foreign area officer community.
Speaker 2:So I just wanna I have got a couple of notes here I just wanna describe like how you would apply for this TCT program. So first of all you must be screened for department head. You must be TSSCI eligible. You must have a minimum score on that D-Lab that we talked about, the Defense Language Aptitude Battery of 110. 110 is the marker of what we're looking for to select you as competitive or having the capability to learn that foreign language. And then the final thing that you must do is pass an interview that's shared by an 06 foreign area officer. So after you complete the series of those steps, then basically the surface warfare community has agreed that they will allow you to stay on board. Complete your department head tours. Get that excellent leadership exposure, that opportunity. Community has has agreed that they will allow you to stay on board. Complete your department head tours, get that excellent leadership exposure, that opportunity.
Speaker 2:Because and I don't know if I mentioned this um earlier, but I I did tell you I work with um, the columbian navy, every single day. Every single day here I work with the columbian navy. But the people who I really connect with are it should not be a surprise are the surface warfare officers, because when I go in and I wear my surface warfare officer pin, they know where I came from, they know that I've served aboard ships, they know that I've stood the watches. So those are the people who are naturally my people. Now, of course, I work with aviators too and I work with submariners too, but it's really those swos that I really have a close bond with and it's not, it's not by happenstance, it's because we served in the same capacity. So, yeah, it's, it's again the, the foundation of having that warfare experience. Um, now we and a disclaimer here we do have some intel officers that let all transfer into FAO and they're excellent, they're wonderful and we do have people-.
Speaker 1:No shade to us information warfare types. Yeah, you'd be okay.
Speaker 2:We do, we do. However, yeah, it's knowing the Navy, having the experience of serving in, you know to a certain extent, the more that you have that more, especially those leadership jobs like department head. They're just screaming like you know what you're talking about. Like, like, like you've earned your salt, right?
Speaker 1:So yeah, Classic Swell response.
Speaker 2:I know you can't get it out of me. You can't get it out of me.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love it, but no, actually just a quick, a super quick interjection too. When you talk about working with the Columbia Navy, just to provide again an example of what you do in your current job. Like, what are the initiatives that the United States is working with the Columbia Navy on? Like, is it counter narcotics, counterterrorism, Like, what kind of what is working with the Colombian Navy on? Is it counter-narcotics?
Speaker 2:counter-terrorism. What is the mission of what the United States is doing in Colombia right now? Yeah, Well, those are two missions that are front and center in Colombia. It's kind of like when in Rome, that's what you're going to be concerned about, but we're also. So there was a program in Colombia specifically called Plan Colombia. It was an interagency program. It lasted from, roughly, I think, 2001 to 2011 and beyond, if you will, and that was specifically counter-narcotics focused. But we've evolved beyond Plan Columbia.
Speaker 2:But I would think it would be disingenuous to say that, oh, I'm in the naval mission, I don't care about counter-narcotics. I mean, that's just not true, because you know what the Colombians care about counter narcotics. The Colombian Navy cares about counter narcotics. So of course, that's going to be something that is front and center on um, our collaboration together. However, from the U S Navy side, from the U S military side, uh, strategic competition is super important to us.
Speaker 2:So what we do is like you kind of get that Venn diagram and you see, okay, these are the Colombian Navy's, you know important things. These are very front and center considerations that they're tackling, issues they're tackling every day. And then we get the US Navy and what we're concerned about and you look at where we are positioned globally, you know geostrategically, you know maybe there's a certain characteristic about Colombia it's maybe near you know that really is where the magic happens, that's where our collaboration really serves the purpose of why we're here, and so that's again. We work in the scenes, we try to find where those commonalities are and we focus on what we can do about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, absolutely. It's so darn cool and I guess, kind of like the last piece is if someone were like trying to brainstorm this out and they're trying to figure this out of like what this decision means in my life, not just four years from now, but 20 years from now. What are some of the common or normal exit plans for most FAOs, like do they go work for the State Department? Do they go work in politics? Like has there been like kind of a pipeline, like people see, like, oh, I know, like being a FAO is going to give me the experience I need to, you know, take an ambassador role to, hopefully in the future, right? Like, what are some of these common trends you see with people, like once they retire from the Navy, kind of what the next phase is for them after this program?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I think you know you hit two obvious ones there. So State Department is definitely something that foreign area officers you know they, you know they might decide that they're really, really into the interagency.
Speaker 1:In fact they want to be, you know on the other side of the letter agency, integration and having fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's cool and that's fine, you know. Another one is, you know, continued public service, and I think that's I would like to see more of us, you know, elect to serve in public service, whether it's an elected position or not. Another thing that foreign area officers do once they get out of, if they retire, they get out of. If they retire, they get out of the service is they might work for an industry and they might work for, you know, one of the big contractors, or they might actually work for you know, a shipbuilding company or something, and and they have absolutely very highly sought after specific skill sets that they can transfer into industry. So it's really the sky's the limit. There are so many things that you can do with the skills that you need to be a foreign area officer.
Speaker 1:So cool. Well, thank you, and just to kind of like phase this to the last kind of portion of our discussion which I really want to almost tailor directly to a lot of the midshipmen specifically, right, if someone's listening out there and there's like a midshipman's like to a lot of the midshipmen specifically right, if someone's listening out there and there's like a midshipman's like holy crud, like I had no idea one, this is even an option or like a possibility for me in the future, or something of the sort. Right In that discussion to a midshipman who may be interested in a FAO program, what would you tell them to consider and like, what advice would you give them to maximize their chance of taking advantage of an opportunity like this and what is in their control, you know, as a midshipman and going into their young junior officer career to put themselves in a spot to be like oh yeah, like no, I know I would love to put myself in a spot to, you know, become a FAO at some point.
Speaker 2:That's a great question and I want to say I actually was at the Naval Academy back in September. We have a biannual cornerstone event where 05s and 06s fares and above. And you're reminding me, you asked me earlier about our flag officers and I did want to mention and give a shout out to our community. We are very proud. We just had our third one star named. It was selected in a board last week. It's Captain Ray Owen, so he's the rear admiral select. We're very proud. It's the first time ever that the foreign area officer community for the Navy has had three one-star flag officers. So if you're interested in reaching flag, you can do it as a foreign area officer. So I want to put that out there.
Speaker 2:The second thing I wanted to do when I started to talk about being at the Naval Academy, I was just there. The Secretary of the Navy had a symposium there in September and I actually got to have lunch with the squad from 15th Company and it was super fun was a midshipman and I think it is absolutely for the better. I think it's the better for the Naval Academy, the better for a midshipman, the better for our naval officers, and so I would advise and so I've met a few midshipmen who are super interested in potentially becoming a FAO down the road. So my advice to them is knowing that we need people who have that operational experience, that fleet experience, before they lateral transfer in. So you don't, you don't commission and become a FAO.
Speaker 2:You have to, you know, you have to. I advise them to, to follow their heart and do what which you know. If that's going submarines, then go submarines. If that's being an aviation and an aviation you're going to have a longer career training path and then, mid-career, you become a FAO. We have, in fact we have a specific FAO billets that are for aviators because we have aircraft not in every country, but Columbia has aircraft here we have C-12s and in order for our senior defense official and for our attaches to get around the country in the more remote areas. Then we have FAOs who dual hat as also pilots for those aircraft and they fly them.
Speaker 1:Wait it's for real.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh, that's sweet. We have FAO ballots just for aviators. So, please, please, if you want to fly, go fly. Keep in the back of your head oh, but I might be a say-o too Keep that in mind but go be a pilot first. Go be a surface warfare officer, go be a Navy SEAL. Do that and realize that if you're approaching, you know around your, your 10 year mark and you think you know what this, this has been great, which is, quite frankly, what I did as a, as a public affairs officer. I did it for a little over 10 years and I thought it's been great. But I'm kind of interested in doing something else. Think about the foreign area officer career, because it's, you're, it's amazing, I, I, it's just, it's, it's an incredible career opportunity. And, yeah, I, I just, I love it, I love it.
Speaker 1:Grant it's, it's so cool, and so just to just to emphasize, because I know there may be some people who listen to you talk about this SWO to FAO specific program yeah, is there any data to show or support, kind of you. You know what people may be drawing a conclusion like, oh, since there's a tailored program for this, like I have the best chance, if I go slow, like your kind of advice here is really just do what you want to do in your warfare community and there will be opportunity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is my advice and we don't have the data yet, but I'm sure that we're eagerly waiting to collect it. I again, just from you know, understanding the program and the opportunity it provides, especially from the leadership side and working as a department head on a ship, I just see, I see immense potential for those post-department head foreign area officers of rising up to those flag ranks. I just I see the potential and I won't be surprised at all If it's one of the first bash that we have. Who's one of our future flag officers? It wouldn't, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
Speaker 1:So cool. Last piece kind of your story, specifically, is going from a reservist back to a foreign area officer, and so I'll give you an opportunity to address, like, if there are any reservists like listening in to this program for whatever reason they're like, oh my gosh, like I didn't consider this, what would your advice be? Or what factors would you tell a reservist to consider whether that be becoming like a reservist fail or the like switch back to active duty to become a fail?
Speaker 2:What do you have?
Speaker 1:there.
Speaker 2:I appreciate the question. The backstory for me is that after I left active duty after 12 and a half years which is a little bit unusual, but some people do it After about 18 months, I realized that I missed active duty and I wanted to go back. But what I didn't know is that there really isn't a path to go back onto active duty. So how did I do it? A path to go back onto active duty. So how did I do it? Well, this was a journey for me that lasted almost 10 years in order to get back on active duty. And this is something that, now that I'm an 06 and I I'm on, the technical term is called an indefinite recall, which I think is a misnomer because it makes it sound like I'm still a reservist, but I'm not. I'm back on full-on active duty. There's a few select people who have been able to.
Speaker 2:Basically, to put it in layman's terms, it was determined that we had so much skill for the Navy that the Navy needed that they created an opportunity for us to go back onto active duty.
Speaker 2:But it is not a normal pipeline. It's not like a program out there, like the TMT, where you know, yes, this is something feasible for you. So my call out to the Navy, my call out to our leadership, to the VCNO, to our personnel, to the chief of personnel, I firmly believe and this is Susanna Brugler speaking, so let's get that out there but I think, to best service our Navy and to best service especially our Gen Zers, even our millennials, I think we need to create a more fluid opportunity to on-ramp back into active duty after you have chosen to leave and, Grant, thank you for allowing me to give a plug for that because it's really something that I am really dedicated to trying to make a change because I really think it's the right thing for our Navy and capturing the talents that the Navy has already invested in. So, so, again, that's that's Susanna, Susanna Brugler's little idea.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love it. Well, perfect. This has been so darn fun of a conversation. I appreciate you taking the time to do this.
Speaker 2:I didn't get to drink my water, but I wanted to show here that I have this alongside.
Speaker 1:The Little Naval Academy mug. I love it, which is actually kind of the switch back to the final piece, which is something I ask everyone who comes on the podcast as well, which is why should young men and women? Again, because we do have a little bit of an audience of individuals who are in high school, who are just interested in the academy, trying to learn more about it. What's your recruiting pitch? Why should young men and women consider a service academy education? Why are these things great, great question.
Speaker 2:If you were like me, as a high school student or as a teenager, and you're dreaming what it is that you want to do with your life. I wanted to do something extraordinary with my life. I knew that when I was young I was driven to doing something out of the ordinary, but what I have found serving in the Navy has made my life beyond extraordinary. So you can't dream big enough of the opportunities that would be presented to you if you go to a service academy and if you have any of if you have any doubts, just give me a call and let's have like a 10 minute conversation and I'm pretty sure you'll change your mind in the end.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it Well, genuinely for anyone listening. If you shoot me a message here on Academy Insider, I'll get you connected to Susanna. We can have those conversations again. I think what's beautiful it's something I talk about a lot is this power of the Service Academy network and it's so much more than just business deals or whatever. It's kindness. It's open doors to have conversations with people who have been so positively impacted by this experience that we want to get back and share that with the next wave of individuals who have that curiosity or interest in pursuing in these same paths.
Speaker 2:Thank you for doing this, karan, because this is you, this is what you built. I love this network and just thank you.
Speaker 1:No, of course it's my pleasure. Y pues gracias por estar aquí con nosotros y compartir tu historia and everything of the FAO program. This is so darn cool. Is there anything you have left or want to leave with the Academy Insider audience before we wrap?
Speaker 2:up. No, I think we've covered it, but it's been a sure pleasure Con gusto. I think you have to come back and visit us in Bogota next time, okay.
Speaker 1:I'm coming, you better watch out. That's an invitation I will take up.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:I have an idea to be to Bogota and I would love to do it, so stand by. Okay, Bye for that. Watch out I'm coming, but I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Into the Academy Insider audience. Reach out with any questions. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much. Okay, Ciao. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Academy Insider podcast. I really hope you liked it, enjoyed it and learned something during this time. If you did, please feel free to like and subscribe or leave a comment about the episode. We really appreciate to hear your feedback about everything and continue to make Academy Insider an amazing service that guides, serves and supports midshipmen, future midshipmen and their families. Thank you.
