The Academy Insider Podcast - Your Guide to The Naval Academy Experience
The mission of Academy Insider is to guide, serve, and support Midshipmen, future Midshipmen, and their families. Through the perspective of a community of former graduates and Naval Academy insiders, this podcast will help you learn about life at the United States Naval Academy in Annapolis. Through our shared experiences, Academy Insider guides families through the anxiety and frustration caused by lack of understanding, misinformation, and confusion. This platform is designed to better relationships between midshipmen and their loved ones. This podcast is not affiliated with the United States Naval Academy, the United States Navy or Department of Defense. The thoughts and opinions are exclusively those of your host and his guests.
The Academy Insider Podcast - Your Guide to The Naval Academy Experience
#076 Insights from Command Master Chief Anthony Amato on Forging Future Naval Leaders
Command Master Chief Anthony Amato joins us for an insightful discussion on the Academy Insider Podcast, where we uncover the essential dynamics between junior officers and senior enlisted leaders in the Navy. Learn how Anthony’s journey from enlisting in 2001 to becoming the Chief of the Boat (COB) on the USS John Warner has shaped his leadership philosophy. He provides a unique perspective on the crucial role of mentorship and communication between the chief’s mess and the wardroom, illustrating how these relationships are pivotal in molding the leaders of tomorrow. Gain exclusive insights into his responsibilities and the collaborative environment that supports midshipmen and junior officers.
Our conversation delves into the process of fostering leadership skills in naval officers. We highlight the indispensable guidance chief petty officers provide to junior officers as they navigate the shift from the Naval Academy’s structured environment to real-world naval operations. By empowering junior officers with decision-making capabilities, we explore how they can develop a profound sense of purpose, positively impacting their sailors while embracing the ethos of servant leadership.
Finally, we share inspiring stories from the submarine force, celebrating the dedication and humility of some incredible officers. The episode captures the transformative experience of serving beneath the waves, where the quest for self-improvement and personal growth is ever-present. Join us as we reflect on the tight-knit community of submariners and the invaluable leadership opportunities that await those who are humble and hungry for success. As we conclude, we express our gratitude to our listeners and invite them to contribute their feedback, ensuring the Academy Insider continues to be a valuable resource for the naval community.
The mission of Academy Insider is to guide, serve, and support Midshipmen, future Midshipmen, and their families.
Grant Vermeer your host is the person who started it all. He is the founder of Academy Insider and the host of The Academy Insider podcast and the USNA Property Network Podcast. He was a recruited athlete which brought him to Annapolis where he was a four year member of the varsity basketball team. He was a cyber operations major and commissioned into the Cryptologic Warfare Community. He was stationed at Fort Meade and supported the Subsurface Direct Support mission.
He separated from the Navy in 2023 and now owns The Vermeer Group, a boutique residential real estate company that specializes in serving the United States Naval Academy community PCSing to California & Texas.
We are here to be your guide through the USNA experience.
Connect with Grant on Linkedin
Academy Insider Website
Academy Insider Facebook Page
If you are interested in sponsoring the podcast, have an idea, question or topic you would like to see covered, reach out: podcast@academyinsider.com.
Welcome to Season 2 of the Academy Insider Podcast. Academy Insider is a 501c3 nonprofit organization that serves midshipmen, future midshipmen and their families. At its core, this podcast is designed to bring together a community of Naval Academy graduates and those affiliated with the United States Naval Academy in order to tell stories and provide a little bit of insight into what life at the Naval Academy is really like. I hope you enjoy it. Thank you so much for listening and reach out if you ever have any questions. Hey everyone, and welcome back to the Academy Insider Podcast. Today's episode. We double down on a topic that's really important in the life of a junior officer, the life of a midshipman at the Academy, and that's the relationship between a junior officer and a chief out in the fleet, the senior enlisted community. And so in today's episode I'm joined by Command Master Chief Anthony Amato, who, again, I built a relationship with him while he was the Cobb, or the chief of the boat which is the senior, most enlisted person on the USS John Warner. So I deployed with the John Warner and I built an incredible relationship with him, because I saw the dynamic between the chief's mess and the wardroom on board John Warner and I was just amazed. I was shocked at how positive the dynamic was, and a major factor of that was his initiative in pushing constant communication and constant mentorship between the Chiefs, mess and the junior officers on the boat. And so he's an incredible guy. I'm so excited for him to be the representative of a larger Chiefs community in their role in the development of your sons or daughters, or of you right, as you go through and you develop and make your way up as an officer in the United States Navy. Check this episode out. If you have any questions, let me know. You know, if you like this episode and you want to learn more about life at the academy, life as a junior officer in the fleet and everything that is incredible about the Service, academy education and life as a junior officer, then make sure to subscribe to the YouTube channel or to the podcast as we continue to build this thing. Thank you so much. I hope you have a great day and enjoy the listen.
Speaker 1:The Academy Insider Podcast is sponsored by the Vermeer Group, a residential real estate company that serves the United States Naval Academy community and other select clientele in both California and Texas. If I can ever answer a real estate related question for you or connect you with a trusted Academy affiliated agent in the market which you're in. Please reach out to me directly at grant at the Vermeer Groupcom. You can also reach out to me on my LinkedIn page, grant Vermeer, and I'd be happy to respond to you there. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Now let's get back to the episode. All right, hey everyone, and welcome back to the Academy Insider Podcast. This one's super fun for me. Today, again, we're here with Command Master Chief Anthony Amato. And for anyone again, background here when I was deploying, when I was a JO on the fleet, he was the Cobb of the John Warner and so we'll throw we threw a bunch of terms out, even just right there that you might not be familiar with. We'll jump into it, but him and I have a relationship from our time in the Navy and out to sea, so I'm so excited for him to be here to talk about you know, relationships between senior enlisted leaders. You know the chief's mess and JOs and the fleet. So, anthony, thanks so much for being out here. If you don't mind just giving a quick introduction to the Academy Insider audience about who you are, where you're from, how you ended up in the Navy, kind of your career progression and where you're at and what you're doing right now.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Well. Once again, thanks so much for having me on the show. I love what you guys are doing. I think it's got a really great direction to it, so it's cool to be a part of it. But yeah, so a little bit of background on me. I've been in the Navy 23 years. Originally from New York, I joined the Navy because I didn't trust myself to go to college. I think I was pretty self-aware, unlike a lot of the phenomenal young people that you're speaking to that have a clear vision. I didn't know how I was going to do in college, but my whole family was in the Navy and I had this desire to serve and to join the Navy, and that ended making sure that I ended up on submarines. And so submarines was something I was always interested in, and so I joined the Navy back in 2001, was in boot camp for 9-11.
Speaker 2:So transitioned a lot in the Navy from when I joined to where we were when I came out of school Sure, and then been on a bunch of different submarines. My last one was the USS John Warner and on that boat was where I made Master Chief. It's where I put in my command Master Chief package and then picked up CMC from there and then from there. This is my second command now post Cobb. Cobb is chief of the boat, so he's the senior enlisted guy on board the submarine.
Speaker 1:And so I spent some time up in Whidbey Island in Washington and now understand again kind of the relationship dynamic that's here, right? So when I was a young lieutenant, out in the fleet in the submarine, anthony was the command master chief, so he was the senior, most person enlisted person on board the submarine, part of the command triad, right, you have the commanding officer, you have the executive officer and then you have the command master chief and so or in the case of the submarine, a Cobb, and they could be a senior chief, but basically, again, the senior, most enlisted person on the submarine. And so he's a part of this entire triad. He's a part of the leadership of the submarine from a strategic and operational level and even down at the tactical levels, and then to get selected to take over as the squadron CMC or command master chief. Again, like he's saying, now he's in charge of an entire squadron of chiefs messes throughout the fleet, right. And so, again, his ability to make impact in the scale at which he can influence the fleet, just continues to grow Right. So he's making his way up into very senior enlisted ranks and he's just the man.
Speaker 1:Well, like he was, he was my go-to guy on the submarine, like when I came on board, like there, an instant chemistry and we're like we're going to be friends and we're going to be good professional colleagues and this is going to work Exactly. So love every bit of it and I appreciate you being here and again. Today's episode really is all about the dynamic between the Chiefs, mess and JOs, junior officers out in the fleet, and so with this I kind of want to bring it back to your first tour as a chief, when you put on those khakis, you become a chief for the first time and you have that first interaction with your first division officer. How was that? Do you mind kind of running me through that whole experience and like, was it a positive or negative experience? What expectations did you have going into it and how did you try to approach that relationship?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think I've grown a lot in my in my expectations for division officers and this story always makes me laugh because I don't think it was me in my best moment, right, like. But I, you know, I, as I like to say, I want to lower the waterline, be a little bit vulnerable.
Speaker 2:My first interaction was I had a young division officer who told me he was taking over as the damage control assistant and he was not meeting the mark in some of the uniform requirements.
Speaker 2:That I thought was the right example for an officer in the United States Navy, sure, and so we had like a little weird dynamic and I was like, hey, man, like you know, I really need you to fix some of these things and, like you know, get a sad haircut and be a little clean, shaven and, you know, make the uniform look better. But and you know, the point of all that was is in my head I'm supposed to be training that officer for the next position, Right? So I want him to be ready to be an engineer, and if he's going to be in charge of a department of 50 people, I want him to look in the best light, and that requires sometimes some uncomfortable conversations, and so that was our first interaction. He's like, hey, I'm going to be your new division officer and I was like I feel you, but we got to fix a couple of things.
Speaker 2:first, we got to change some things here, yeah, and so I mean I say that story, but he became, you know, I think he was, I think there was an initial, a little bit of anger and a little upset, but I think that he really grew to understand that it was my best interest, like I wanted what was best for him.
Speaker 2:And you know we ended up having a great relationship. Every promotion, you know, he always reaches out to me. Uh, matter of fact, the last army navy game, he sent me a jersey from the game. So, yeah, so I mean you know great relationship. But I think, in this role, as you can build great friendships and great chemistry.
Speaker 2:It's also about, you know, having frank conversation and dialogue and holding people accountable, because it's my job and so that was the. That's one of the first interactions I think about. And, as far as expectations, I've talked to you about this before, but I'm a big proponent of the four agreements, right, and that means be impeccable with your words, don't take things personal, don't make assumptions and do your best every day. And I think, as a young chief, I assumed that that division officer knew had a division officer, and I think that that is something that, throughout the fleet, we should reassess, because you know, as we'll get into later, like there's a lot of mentorship and training that needs to happen to make sure that we are equipping them with the ability to be able to do that at the best, to be able to lead it to the best of their ability.
Speaker 1:So yeah, no 100%. And as that changes, you kind of went through. Obviously it's the first experience with a young JLs, your division officers, you continue to make your way up and new tours and you know new JLs come and fill those roles. Sure, was your approach ever different. Did it develop? Has it adapted or evolved at all, or kind of what would you say? How would you treat a JO checking in today versus that first interaction that you had with your first divo?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean 100% different, right? Like I mean, think about it, I've been a chief for 14 years now, right? So I mean I hope that it's progressed. I would say that I would do a better job to build the groundwork and set the expectations for what it is that we need from you, like, hey, sir, what is you know? Sir, ma'am, what is your role, what do you think your role is as the division officer? And like, get to hear what their?
Speaker 2:perspective is and then, you know, have that dynamic where it's like, all right. Well, here are some things that I'm going to need from you, here's some of my expectations for you and then really take on that mentorship role. I think it's a key. It's just really important to understand where we fall in in our job as chiefs, to make sure that we're preparing these officers for the next role and the next job.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And in this frank conversation that we're having right now, what do you believe the primary role and responsibility of a young divo is? I know you kind of asked them what they think it is. But what do you think it is and kind of, what are your expectations for that divo? Checking in, yeah.
Speaker 2:so when a young divo checks in, I think priority number one is learning how to do their job right. They have to be able to get qualified to support the watch bill and support the mission. So whatever that is, they need to figure out how to do that. So step one is understand what platform you're on, what qualifications you have to do and get qualified. That's step one and it's my job to help support you in that in any way that I can. The qualifications come in.
Speaker 2:I think it really I need to start teaching them how to lead, what it looks like to lead and how to address the team and, you know, teach them the skills that I want them to have in a future pilot, engineer, you know, navigator, whatever these department head roles that they're going to go into next, and so it's. It really is like a. It's a relationship where I want them to start with, you know, 80% on calls and then, as they get qualified, they walk it back. All right, how do we run the division? How does the day-to-day happen? And then, kind of like, continue to give them more and more responsibility so that they feel comfortable and are well-rounded in all aspects of of the job that they're doing, but if they can't do the job, and they don't know how to do it then it's kind of hard for them to move past the next stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, absolutely. And as you moved into the COB role, right, so you're talking about again these are conversations you're having as the division chief talking to a division officer, right? And this is a very personal dynamic for you, right? Because again it's you as the individual and you control your own personality. You know how you act in that relationship with the division officer. But when you make your way up and you become a department leading chief petty officer and you become the chief of the boat, how did you then take that approach? Because now you're in charge of the chief's mess and you're kind of responsible for how your entire group of chiefs interact with all of the division officers on board the submarine. So for you at that point in your career then, what was the approach, what were the conversations you were having with the chief's mess at large to kind of again ensure success or maximize the benefit in the dynamic of the relationships between the chief's mess in the wardroom?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, first of all, it all starts with clear, concise expectations. Okay, so I have a firm belief, that is. I mean, it's, it's in our chief's creed, it's. It's it's what we're responsible for as chief petty officers is to mentor junior officers.
Speaker 2:Okay, any, if you look throughout the fleet, the captains, the admirals that get it, that are operating on the highest level possible, they all will reference the first chief that they have. They do. They talk about it all the time. They remember him by name, they talk about the impact that they had on their career. And the message that I try to give to all chiefs is, when you don't put the time and energy into a junior officer and get him prepared, or her prepared, for the next job, you're going to have someone that doesn't understand the value of the chief's mess. And to the best boat and the best command you'll ever serve at is when there is a beautiful relationship between the chiefs and officers, where the chiefs know their role, the officers know their role, they communicate well together and they're able to get the mission done because they respect one another, they support one another, they mentor one another and there's just this beautiful relationship. And you know, I mean to be honest. I think you were able to see that firsthand with your time on.
Speaker 2:Warner, and so the conversation with the chiefs is simple it's our job to make these future officers, these young officers, future captains, and I want them to think about what it takes to have them be a future captain. And the other part of this is, you know, what we were kind of talking about earlier was we need to treat junior officers like junior sailors. Ok, and so Hear me out all right, because I don't want it to come across the wrong way, but here's the deal, right, here's the deal. These officers that are coming into the Navy are 22 years old. They are phenomenal at what they did. They worked very hard to get there, but they're 22. They don't know a lot about the Navy, and so we can't just put all of this energy into young enlisted sailors and not match the energy on junior officers. We need to make sure that they understand how to Navy and how to you know, hey, what's what's in a sea bag? What do I need to bring underway? What are the expectations for deployment?
Speaker 2:You know where do you get your LES Like you know? Some of these things they do know, but some of it it's. I think it's my job to make sure that they're ready and I want them to leave knowing that they have a bunch of chief petty officers that have their best interests in mind and are and are checking all those checks and balances and supporting them. That makes sense. I know you was looking at me a little crazy when I said it.
Speaker 1:Hey, what I love about it is it has a shock factor. Why would I say we need to treat young officers like junior sailors? But the reality is, as you explained, that I'm wholeheartedly in agreement. And here's my thing right, when you go to the Naval Academy for lack of a better term, you're in a really controlled environment. You're in a controlled bubble and, again, you don't have a lot of autonomy. You're not living real life, right. You walk down to your chow hall and you eat three meals every single day that's provided by the Naval Academy. You go up to your room, right, like you're in class all day, like you're not living for lack of a better term real life, right.
Speaker 1:So the moment you graduate and you're like you're saying, you're 22 years old and you're on a ship for the first time, you're two months on the submarine. You don't know what, what you? You don't know what. You don't know Exactly, right. And so to have someone like you're saying you know, you put it at 14 years as a chief, when you have someone who's been in the Navy potentially as long as you've been alive, who can help walk you through the basics of of just life as a sailor, right, as a life of someone in the United States Navy. It's critically important because if you're lost in that way, like how are you then supposed to help your junior sailor when the chief is on leave, right, or the chief is, you know what I mean. And so again, that relationship between the chief and the JL. Like the chief does, they need to treat him like a junior sailor at first and help them learn the basics right and like get through life as a person in the Navy, because it's critically important, right and you can be so, so lost otherwise.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and not only lost, and not only lost on all those things, but also, like, hey man, qualifications in the Navy is not something that you inherently just know, right, like hey, hey man, how do you, how do you qualify? Hey, walk me through, like you know, not just, not just the ins and outs of the day to day, but like how am I going to be successful in this role, in this job? And so I just you know, to answer your question, that is, the message that I give to the chiefs is that it's our job to support these junior officers to make them future captains someday, and that requires putting in the energy and the effort and making sure that we are covering on all basis and not limiting to oh well, they're an officer, so they figure it out. Like, don't make that assumption, you know, ask the questions and mentor, lead and inspire.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and as you've made this shift now from being again the Cobb to being a squadron CMC where you get to see multiple different submarines operating and that have their own unique culture, that have their own unique way of doing things, do you think we're doing that well across again, across the small subsection of the fleet, or do you think that's something that we need to genuinely or generally improve on? When it comes to the relationship dynamic of a JL and a chief?
Speaker 2:I think it's personality driven. I think that we could always do better in that area. I think it's personality driven. I think that we could always do better in that area. I think certain people like here's the deal If you're super talented at what you do and you have a really good team, then you have the bandwidth to be able to do more Like.
Speaker 1:I think back to my coffee with the cob sessions that I would do in the wardroom right Like it was, like we would just sit down with the. You were in there, I was in there all the time.
Speaker 2:I had coffee with the cob man, so we would sit down with the junior officers off going and just talk about hey, what are we doing right, what are we doing wrong, what can we improve. But I had a phenomenal team and I was established in where I was at and was able to have the bandwidth to do that. But I also prioritize those things, those things. So I would tell you when you go into these new roles, my job now is to help align those cops and and make sure that they understand the importance of these conversations Like hey, what are you doing to build a relationship with your junior officers? Because being a junior officer is hard, right, it's hard. You don't want to let down your boss, so you don't. You can't really go to your department head If you're, if you're having it're having it. You can go to him if you're having a problem or her. But if you're struggling, no one wants to go to their boss and say they're struggling.
Speaker 2:And so what are you going to do Then? Go to the XO or the captain that's even further of a reach. So as a Cobb and a CMC, you can be that middle guy to be like, hey, how's everything going, what do you need? Oh, you know, the department has being a little rough on you. What are the what's, how's that working? And then you know, maybe a I'm reframing something and putting it in a new perspective for him so that way he or she, you know, could better handle the situation.
Speaker 2:Or maybe I'm going to follow up with the department head and just being like, hey, is this really the best way to lead the junior officers? Like, could we do that better? And so you know, my mentorship doesn't just stop at the jail level, right, so I'm able to talk to the department heads as well and make sure that they're aligned with. You know what we're looking to do as far as training junior officers, and so I have a very interesting perspective and an ability to like kind of put my hands in everything and be involved.
Speaker 2:But, to answer your question, I think that certain boats get it and certain boats and the cobs and the chiefs are doing a good job of doing that and other boats can improve, but I think these conversations and these dialogues is where the improvement comes from, because no one wakes up and wants to do a bad job. Everyone wants to do the best that they can and sometimes they become overwhelmed and they lose focus on. You know where the priorities are and for me that's just one of the top priorities. For the Navy moving forward to be successful is that relationship and that mentorship.
Speaker 1:Oh, 100%. And to take it again, kind of talking now directly to the Academy Insider audience, who are, you know, think of things in context of the Naval Academy. It's something I talk about a lot, right, is each company is going to have its own different culture and things are going to be different from unit to unit, right? And so when you get out to the fleet, you know everything that we're talking about. All these experiences. Things might be different, right?
Speaker 1:The relationships again I deployed on four different submarines in that like three and a half year span. And Relationships again I deployed on four different submarines in that like three and a half year span. And I'll tell you what the relationship between the chief's mess in the wardroom on the John Warner was significantly different than a lot of the other relationships on different boats throughout the fleet, right, and so you may not hear these stories and hear the same things that are going on, right, because again, it is very personality driven. There are a lot of different aspects that go into this. It is very personality driven. There are a lot of different aspects that go into this, but in general, I think this is why the conversation is really important is like when you have an example of excellence, right, when you have an example of something that's good.
Speaker 1:We just want to make sure that people know that like this is what it can be like right.
Speaker 1:This is what it should be like, this relationship that you have with your chief, like it should be a really special and I'm like I mean this genuinely like a really special relationship you have right With that person in the fleet, like someone who takes you under their wing and helps. That like helps you right and it helps you discover life as a as a Naval officer, right, and so you know, I think that's that's really important. And you know, as you mentioned, 14 years as a chief, multiple, again as a division chief, as a department chief, as a Cobb and now as a squadron CMC you've seen a lot of junior officers. You've seen a lot of these different relationships and dynamics Over your time. What have you seen that have caused certain JOs to really excel, while others have kind of struggled right, while others have kind of struggled right. And then, from your perspective I know this has been the topic of the discussion, but how have you tried to mitigate some of those things proactively as people check into submarines?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the JOs that really excel are the ones that don't think they have it all figured out, that are open-minded, that are open to feedback, that are willing to take in information and be in receive mode. I also think some of that is what's the culture at the organization? Right? I would say certain cultures. No matter what JO shows up, they're going to figure it out how to support them because it's their job, right? And so I think the JOs that really get it have the right culture in which they prioritize taking care of them, making sure they get qualified, and have like a vested interest in their success. And I think the ones that struggle are one the ones that don't ask for help. Right, no one has all this figured out. You got to be willing to raise your hand and be like, hey, I don't get it. Hey, I need help. And I'm sure that same conversation happens at the Academy. Right, like you can't suffer in silence.
Speaker 2:If you want help, if you want to get better, then you got to be able to reach out and have those conversations and say you need help. And the ones that are willing to ask for help, the ones that are willing to raise their hand and say hey man, this is hard, Like listen, the Navy is hard, the Academy is hard, right, we're taking the best and brightest and putting them in a situation that is significantly harder than anything anyone can experience for college. It's just tough and you're going to then go into a submarine or a boat or a squadron and it's going to be hard there too. So, being able to have an open mind, ask for help, those are the ones that seem to excel and figure it out.
Speaker 1:No, I couldn't agree more, right, I think it's so important, and so far I've been watching Ted Lasso a lot, so I'm like trying to find ways to like, weave stuff in.
Speaker 1:But, like, again, there is such a power in being curious, right, and asking a lot of questions and having the humility to be like, all right, I don't have this figured out. Like, I need, like, what am I missing? Right, like, what questions should I be asking? What are the things that I need to be, you know, discovering myself to or receiving to make it happen? Right, and it's funny that you mentioned again you have to be willing to ask for help, because Sarah Riley, who was another JL on the John Warner right, took over for Molly. Like, for Molly, like, she is now at the Academy teaching and that was that was her number. One thing about midshipmen struggling academically too is, like, you need to know and have the ability to ask for help when you need help. Sure, right, like, that is such a skill that you need because it translates directly to being a submarine officer or just a submarine or just an officer in the fleet Right.
Speaker 1:Like you, have to have the humility to realize and be self-aware enough to realize.
Speaker 1:like this is hard and it's meant to be hard it's a really hard job, right, so you don't, you don't need to, like you mentioned earlier with that conversation with your department head, you don't want to admit you don't know something or you're struggling, but like, you need to right, like when you hit that point, you need to be tactical and strategic about asking for help, yeah, about asking for help and like those are the people who really succeed. Because, again, when you give off that aura, like that energy, that vibe of like hey, like no, I'm craving assistance, I want your opinion, I want your help, right, it kind of opens that doorway for someone to be like oh, yeah, no, like I want to invest my time into this person because I know they're going to receive it. Right, I know they're going to receive it and so, yeah, I just I couldn't agree more with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it. And so you know, for the, for the people online that are listening, the approach I say is simple. It's called humble and hungry, right, so you got to be humble. You got to be humble and make sure you're in a position where you're able to receive information and be hungry to want to learn, right, when you, when you add those two things together, if you're a junior officer and you're humble and you're hungry, you're gonna get so much support, like it's, because people are gonna be like, oh man, like they, they genuinely want to get better, they have a desire to want to learn, and and people are just gonna want to help you. So I, I don't know, that's my, it's my little easy, easy thing to remember. Humble and hungry usually ends up.
Speaker 1:This is with some success a ton of success and, dude, I love that thing. That's I don't know if you got it from this that's a Patrick Lencioni book the Ideal Team Player, right. It talks about, in order to be a great team player, dude, you got to be humble and hungry, right, exactly that you got to be humble and hungry. And I think that thing is again, if you do that, right and we talk about this is something that I talk a lot about, again just via reading, and I love this definition right, because I think sometimes people assume right when we talk about the assumption side of the house, that like, assume being humble means like, oh, no, I'm not good at that, right, it's like this feign of, like anti-ego, right, but it's like, no, you need to be confident in your abilities and you need to have a strong presence. But humility, right, this definition of humility being, again, it's not thinking less of yourself, it's about thinking of yourself less, right If you're less focused on your thing, but it's more like, all right, let me, oh, look at this person's experience.
Speaker 1:They have so much experience, I'm curious about learning about them. Or like, oh, this junior sailor's like struggling. I want to ask questions to them, because asking questions to them may actually help me also learn what's going on in their life right and what they're doing in their job. That's going to help me in my qualifications, right. We're all qualifying in a very similar way, right? And so you have that aspect where it's not all about you and you're hungry to learn, right, and you're motivated to, like, want to ask people their opinion and get their thing, like you're saying you're going to succeed, right, people are going to want to help you, people are going to want to help you and so, dude, I love that Humble and hungry dude.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, I'm upset now. You know I'm a book guy like you, man, I don't know what book that is. You got to send me that offline because I haven't read that. I've never even heard that before.
Speaker 1:I thought that was me.
Speaker 2:I thought I was being original.
Speaker 1:Come on, I'm sorry to do that to you. I don't know that. He trademarked it. You might be good. Yeah, now, for anyone listening, there's this author. His name's Patrick Lencioni, one of my favorite. He writes leadership fables, right, so he kind of writes stories, fictional stories that really highlight a couple of important lessons, and one of them's titled the Ideal Team Player, like how do you become a great team player?
Speaker 2:And one of the main chapters is this idea of being humble and hungry, right, and so, anyway, we'll, we'll.
Speaker 1:We'll get that offline to you, we'll get that offline to you. Okay, now, kind of transitioning. Again, we're talking about all these things that you know hopefully will help set JOs to succeed in the fleet. Now with this is that, again, being a submarine officer, being on a submarine, is difficult. Being a submarine junior officer qualifying is really difficult. There are a lot of battles at times for junior officers and just people in the submarine fleet with mental health and some of the other difficult things, and so I just kind of want to turn this to your opinion again. With the vast number of sailors and junior officers you've seen, what do you think are some of the most difficult challenges in the day-to-day life of a young submarine JL? What are some of the things that are difficult and people need to be prepared for before they show up to their first submarine so again, they can ask for help when they need it All?
Speaker 2:right. I think step one is having a decent level of emotional intelligence. So when we're not on a submarine, we know what we need to do to put us back in a green van, right, that self-regulation piece. I think self-regulation is key on the submarine, because you know what you need to do to get you in a green van at home. Is it go for a run? Is it go to the movie theater, is it, I don't know, go to a baseball game, whatever your thing is.
Speaker 2:But now you're on a submarine, in a steel tube, and those things aren't available to you. You're either going to A have to find something new, right. B find a super motivated JO who wants to work out and then work out every day right, that's right. That's what we did there you go, but you got to find something right. And so you know. A lot of people, when I started my cop tour, thought I was a runner. They saw me on a treadmill a lot and thought that I liked to run. The problem was I wanted to read books, but anytime I had a book open and I was awake, someone would be like, hey, cop, you got a second and so. And so I shifted to audible and I would take that time on the treadmill to take in information and kind of recenter me, and so that was my ability to self-regulate.
Speaker 2:So what I would tell the junior officers is hey, it can't all be work, you have to have a balance. You know the term I really like to use. I want people to stop thinking about work-life balance, because as soon as you say work-life balance, you're looking at a scale, you're visualizing a scale like this. Think about it as work-life integration. It's not always going to be even, it just can't be when you're on the boat, but you can integrate, making sure that you have a decent amount of each to make sure that you're self-regulated. And so self-regulate is just super high for me, because if you just try to do work and qualify every day and don't sleep like, you're not going to become the best version of yourself Like you just can't be.
Speaker 2:So if you need to watch a movie to click your brain off, do it. If you need to read a book, like, keep reading. When I see JOs that are struggling, the first thing I'll ask them is like hey, when was the last time you went for a run? You run all the time in Porter, I don't even know. All right man, like well, why don't you go for a run, go take a shower and then we can chat, because you're going to have a different mindset as soon as you get done and you know we're not going to get in the science of working out. But everyone knows it, man, your thing is it reading books? Is it Sudoku? I don't care. Like, do something, like play a game of cribbage, learn how to play. I don't know like something Right.
Speaker 2:So I just I really value the self-regulation piece to keep you it being being the best version of yourself, because when you're in a good mental headspace and you're feeling good physically and mentally. You're going to operate at a high level. Does that answer the question? I think you had a two-part question, but is that part of it?
Speaker 1:No, that answered it 100% right Again, which is, I think, a big struggle, like you're saying, is people finding, for lack of a better term that work-life balance, which I love the way you've reframed that as like finding a way to integrate those things just to stay healthy. Right it just overall healthy. And I know it's funny Cause, like when we were on John Warner together, like people would be like if anyone had a question like where's the DSO, direct support officer that was my name, right, I was where's the DSO or where's cop. It was always like, oh, those two, those two are working out bro. We always found time every day, every day, we found time to take like 30 to 45 minutes and get a workout in, like reset our mind Right, and again, for a lot of times, if you can find someone to hold you accountable to it or be there to be your partner in it as well, sometimes that stuff can work out in a really good way.
Speaker 1:So, no, I think that's really important. Like you're saying, it's just finding that integration, finding the thing that like grounds you and settles you and gets your mind off. You know the constant struggle of the of the work life, especially as a young qualifying JL and so I think that's, I think that's great. To the flip side, complete like 180 here now is what do you see that like brings JLs the most amount of like, joy and purpose and fulfillment in their life as a as a submariner? What are some of the incredible parts of joy and purpose and fulfillment in their life as a submariner? What are some of the incredible parts of submarining that you see that really keep these young JOs going and moving forward and onward?
Speaker 2:I think, giving them the opportunity to lead. I'll tell you a lot of what we do is a lot of energy put on tactics and how to fight the ship, and I don't want to undersell how important that is. But when you start teaching junior officers leadership, when you start getting them involved in conversations about how to lead people and what that looks like and how to get them ready to be a department head, an XO, a CO, when your commanding officer has a priority to teach those types of skill sets I think that not everyone is motivated by the same things, right. But when, when the officers feel like they are, they have a purpose and that their job to lead is is what it is, and they see the value in like taking care of people and understanding, like taking care of their sailors, like you see, like everything open, because they're like, oh, it's not all about qualifications, it's not all about watch standing, it's about taking care of these people, right.
Speaker 2:And so when they feel like, wow, we can be servant leaders, we have the ability to like, affect change in a positive way and take care of the junior sailors, because after a year or two, man, you're not a junior officer anymore. I mean you are, but, like you know what you're doing. And so when you have that now power, yeah, and understanding on how to lead, and you are empowering them and giving them the ability to operate and to do things that they want to do, man, I mean it is a beautiful thing. You know when, when junior officers feel empowered to lead and they have the ability to, you know, just hey, I need you to do this thing and don't tell them how to do it and just let them operate. I think that's when you see the best of junior officers, man, and it's certainly my favorite to watch 100%.
Speaker 1:For me, it's something I talk about a lot when I talk to current midshipmen about this whole thing. It's one of the things that I genuinely miss about being an officer in the Navy, having gotten out, but why I love doing this as well. There are not many things that you can do in this world, especially, you know, in the United States, where the moment you graduate, the moment you show up at your first job, right as a 22 year old, you are going to have the ability to make a positive impact in people's lives, right, like your role, your position as a baseline is going to give you the opportunity. You're going to have a division of like 10 to 15 sailors and you're going to have the ability, every single day, to make a positive impact in people's lives, right. And so, again, if you can take that and, like you're saying, there are personal things you're going to have to do and you're going to have to qualify, you're going to have to learn the tactics and the way to operate a submarine and drive that thing, and learn the weapon systems and understand the reactor and like go through the whole thing. Like, yes, those things will happen, but like there is nothing more important and more special than the opportunity, as a young man or woman again 22, 23 years old to genuinely help people Right. And if you have a great relationship with your chief and you're being coached by your chief as well, right, like your ability to make a direct impact in the lives of potentially an 18 or a 19 or a 20 year old kid, or maybe even a 27 year old or a 30 year old, you're going to have the ability to make positive change and like genuinely help people and lead people Right. And I just think it's the coolest thing about the military and it's one of the really unique aspects of being an officer right, being a junior officer, because, again, you get thrust into that position and you can either you can sink right Again if you walk in and you think you know everything and like again, the ability to make impacts on people's life is going to go down.
Speaker 1:But if you walk in and you're humble and hungry, you accept that coaching and you come in with that mindset of like how can I help people? Again, you're going to have an ability to like make real, real positive impacts in human souls right, In human lives. Right. And I just like I can't understate that enough. Like that, that is the light at the end of the tunnel. When you're a midshipman at the Naval Academy, you're a midshipman in an ROTC program, right, like, your light at the end of the tunnel is the day you graduate and show up on that ship. There's going to be people who are looking to you and you can make a positive impact in their life, right, so long as you do everything that my boy, anthony, was talking about.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, I just again, I'm glad you touched on that because I think that's like, again, it's a really special aspect of being an officer, being in the Navy, right, being a chief, whatever the case is. Again, you just have you know the scale and the authority to like really make impact right and really make change, and that comes with you know responsibility and obligation associated with it too. But, like you know, at the end of the day it's a really special thing. And so want to turn it to you now, maybe just for a little bit of storytelling. As we talk about some of this stuff, when we talk about your relationship with junior officers, is there someone that comes top to mind whenever we mention JO, someone who you think back and you're like this person was an incredible officer, an incredible JO, and what did they do that like makes you feel that way about them even to this, to this day?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean. I think, you knew both of them. I mean shout out to Molly McNamara and Christina Lanier.
Speaker 1:You know, I.
Speaker 2:I had the ability as a cop to integrate the first submarine in Virginia, and so my entire submarine career never worked with female officers in the Navy in the submarine force until that boat. And so my entire submarine career never worked with female officers in the Navy in the submarine force until that boat. And so my first experience of what a junior JO female was was Molly and Christina, and I mean that's a high mark, like that's a high.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like they're phenomenal. They're phenomenal. I mean, I have a million stories from them, but I mean I think one of the things was is that they just had a desire. They were both of those things. They were humble and hungry. They know how to ask, they knew how to ask the right questions. Two totally different personalities, but both the same drive and they supported one another, which I loved. And they, they wanted to make the boat better. They took on programs on the boat. You know, molly with MWR, and, and, and same thing with Christina. She took over MWR and emblematics and and they just they wanted to make the boat better. They took on a lot of the conversations that you know, me and the captain had with them and and it was just great, it was great to see them. I love that. You know I just saw. So Will just took over as the Commodore in San Diego Sweet, and so I was able to make the change of command and you know Miss Lanier still calls me Cobb, right, like that's it right.
Speaker 2:And I love it though I love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I love the ability I have in this role now to kind of walk on both sides right, to be able to have these things, because, I will tell you, I don't think I understood how much, how much mentorship and officer engagement I would have in this role, but I would say it's 50, 50. It's a lot with on both ends right, like hey, I'm about to go be an XO, what are some of the things that you're looking for? Hey, you know what I mean, and so it gives me the ability to kind of walk on both sides, which is awesome. So I'd say they set a pretty high bar, but I just loved their desire to make things better.
Speaker 2:You talk about reading. When I think about those two, I think about legacy and I think about leaving the uniform better than you found it, and they had a desire to leave John Warner better than they found it, and they looked for ways to make improvements throughout the boat and made impacts not just in their divisions but like for the ship, and so that was an honor to serve with them and to be able to be their cop. And those are definitely two people that you know I hope I continue to stay in touch with.
Speaker 1:So I love it. And as we, as we start to wind down right here, I want to give you an opportunity to give your best for lack of a better term a recruiting pitch on. You know what you want to leave this audience with as people who are interested in kind of affiliated somehow with the Naval Academy, about why young men and women should consider a service Academy education, but then why, specifically, they should be excited about being a submarine officer and being a submariner.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so here's the deal. I've always wanted to be an officer man, I love what you do Now.
Speaker 2:I think I'm in the right line of work. I think that God's got a plan for everyone and this is where I ended up. But I will tell you what an opportunity to go to one of these academies and have nothing but phenomenal leaders around you to help guide you on a path to be successful. Where else can you get an education to this caliber, have it be paid for and have everyone have a vested interest in your success? You go to some of these other schools. They don't care whether or not you do well or not. They don't care. Is the money coming in? Like where am I at?
Speaker 2:But here you know, when you're at these academies and you're in these situations, they all want you to be successful. How fortunate are you to be at a top level education, to be taught and educated and then to have everyone that wants to see you succeed man, that's a beautiful thing. And then to be able to have that and then transition into a job where you're now surrounded by chief petty officers and department heads that want to see you do well so that you can take their job. Anywhere you go outside of the military, you're going to get a job, and if you try to take someone else's job, they're going to take it personal, but here we want you to take our job so that we can do the next thing. And so just look at how amazing that is to be able to go into an environment where, everywhere you go, you're supported and people want to help make you better and become a better version of yourself.
Speaker 2:I talk about this a lot in my world and my podcast and the things that I do, but just think about it this way Rarely does becoming a leader make you a better person, but becoming a better person will make you a better leader, and and that is what a lot of people at the Academy and in the Navy are trying to do for you. And so, man, what a blessing to be a part of that. Come join us, come, come, come join the midshipmen.
Speaker 1:Let's go. Hey, the Naval Academy mission is about to be reaching out to you, dude, let's go.
Speaker 2:I'm ready.
Speaker 1:Hey, I want to see you in Annapolis. I want to see you as the CMC of the Academy. Dude, how about that?
Speaker 2:I would love to get back to the East Coast man. I think I got a couple more admiral jobs I got to do before I'm in line for that. But that would certainly be one of the pinnacles. If I ever had the opportunity to be so fortunate man, That'd be dope. Someone owes me a tour. In general, I've never been to Annapolis man. I got to get out there and someone's got to show me around.
Speaker 1:When you're ready to say the word, I'll meet you out there. Man, I would love to show you around Love. To show you around Love. It All right. Last bit why submarining? Why should people want to be on a submarine?
Speaker 2:All right. So I think for this there's something about a small community of people that trust you and have their back and I'm not knocking anyone else. But you asked me why submarines? You could spend an entire tour on an aircraft carrier and not know everyone there. You could spend an entire tour on an aircraft carrier and not know everyone there. Yep Right, the submarine community is so small and everyone has a vested interest in what's best for you. They're supportive. Here's my submarine sales pitch. That's going to change the way you think about submarines.
Speaker 1:Love it.
Speaker 2:We are often distracted by everything around us. We have all these things and social media and phones, and likes and shares and all this stuff. If I could tell you that you could go on a submarine for three to six months and be completely blocked off from all distractions, you could reinvent yourself in three to six months. What are the things that you want to care about? You want to be great at your job. I'm going to remove all distractions and allow you to focus on being great. You want to get great at your job. I'm going to remove all distractions and allow you to focus on being great.
Speaker 2:You want to get in better shape. You want to start reading more books? You want to. Whatever the thing is, you can avoid all other distractions and have a group of people that genuinely have your back, that want to support you and make sure that you're the best version of yourself, and no one can do that like the submarine force. We're the best at what we do, we're apex predators under the sea and we dominate the undersea domain, and so if you want to join the winning team, the team that gets it done, come join the submarine force.
Speaker 1:Just get me going, y'all, let's go Get me going. Hey, that's the best framing of a submarine thing I've ever heard. Okay, months at a time, disconnected from the world, can't talk to family, no rid of distractions. You are there to become the best version of yourself. I love it, right. It just shows how a perspective change can really frame something in a certain way, if you pour into it, right, if you pour into it and you take advantage of the opportunity. So, man, that's good. Well, anthony, my guy, genuinely thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today. Any parting words you want to leave with the audience? Where can they find you if they want to hear you talk more? Because the way you just motivated us over the past 45 minutes, yeah, how can people stay in touch and follow along with you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so, right above me Leadership State of Mind. You can find me on Instagram and I have a podcast also Spotify, itunes, youtube, man at Leadership State of Mind. Like I said earlier, rarely does becoming a leader make you a better person, but becoming a better person will make you a better leader, and so we're just trying to reframe the way people think about leadership. Leadership doesn't have to be this stuffy thing, man. It's a beautiful opportunity to motivate, lead and inspire every day. I'm privileged to be able to have that opportunity and anything I can share with other people to help make them better versions of themselves, man, I'm all for it, man. So come check us out, come check out the podcast, come check us out on Instagram and let us know what you think.
Speaker 1:You're the man Appreciate it. Thank you so much for the time today and for the Academy Insider audience. If you ever have any questions, let me know. Otherwise, I hope you enjoyed the listen today. Have a great day. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Academy Insider podcast. I really hope you liked it, enjoyed it and learn something during this time. If you did, please feel free to like and subscribe or leave a comment about the episode. We really appreciate to hear your feedback about everything and continue to make Academy Insider an amazing service that guides, serves and supports midshipmen, future midshipmen and their families. Thank you.
