The Academy Insider Podcast - Your Guide to The Naval Academy Experience
The mission of Academy Insider is to guide, serve, and support Midshipmen, future Midshipmen, and their families. Through the perspective of a community of former graduates and Naval Academy insiders, this podcast will help you learn about life at the United States Naval Academy in Annapolis. Through our shared experiences, Academy Insider guides families through the anxiety and frustration caused by lack of understanding, misinformation, and confusion. This platform is designed to better relationships between midshipmen and their loved ones. This podcast is not affiliated with the United States Naval Academy, the United States Navy or Department of Defense. The thoughts and opinions are exclusively those of your host and his guests.
The Academy Insider Podcast - Your Guide to The Naval Academy Experience
#056 Transforming Leaders: Inside the Naval Academy's Leadership and Ethics Development Program with Jim McNeal
Unlock the secrets behind the transformative leadership development program at the United States Naval Academy with our remarkable guest, Jim McNeal, a 1986 Naval Academy graduate. Jim brings a wealth of knowledge from his military career as a supply corps officer to his civilian role in executive search, and now, as an adjunct professor teaching ethics and leadership. Learn how he coaches Navy Sprint Football and the stories behind his book, "Herndon Climb," which vividly captures the history and legacy of the Naval Academy's unforgettable traditions.
Explore the meticulous leadership development journey of midshipmen, starting from plebes and transforming into junior officers. We delve into essential courses such as NL 110 and NE203, which blend academic theories with hands-on leadership practices. Discover how midshipmen are thrust into real-world leadership roles within the brigade, extracurricular activities, and sports teams, preparing them for the high-stakes responsibilities of military life. Jim's insights into the curriculum and the powerful impact of proactive engagement in leadership exercises offer a compelling narrative of shaping future leaders.
The conversation also casts a spotlight on the critical role of mentorship and family support in the success of midshipmen. Drawing parallels to high-level sports teams, Jim and I reflect on the importance of having dedicated mentors who provide confidential, nonjudgmental guidance. Moreover, we discuss the role of family in helping midshipmen navigate the pressures of academy life, from academics to social media. Join us as we underscore the profound legacy and enduring bonds formed at the Naval Academy, revealing how this unique institution prepares its graduates for a lifetime of leadership and service.
The mission of Academy Insider is to guide, serve, and support Midshipmen, future Midshipmen, and their families.
Grant Vermeer your host is the person who started it all. He is the founder of Academy Insider and the host of The Academy Insider podcast and the USNA Property Network Podcast. He was a recruited athlete which brought him to Annapolis where he was a four year member of the varsity basketball team. He was a cyber operations major and commissioned into the Cryptologic Warfare Community. He was stationed at Fort Meade and supported the Subsurface Direct Support mission.
He separated from the Navy in 2023 and now owns The Vermeer Group, a boutique residential real estate company that specializes in serving the United States Naval Academy community PCSing to California & Texas.
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Welcome to Season 2 of the Academy Insider Podcast. Academy Insider is a 501c3 nonprofit organization that serves midshipmen, future midshipmen and their families. At its core, this podcast is designed to bring together a community of Naval Academy graduates and those affiliated with the United States Naval Academy in order to tell stories and provide a little bit of insight into what life at the Naval Academy is really like. I hope you enjoy it. Thank you so much for listening and reach out if you ever have any questions. The Academy Insider Podcast is sponsored by the Vermeer Group, a residential real estate company that serves the United States Naval Academy community and other select clientele in both California and Texas. If I can ever answer a real estate related question for you or connect you with a trusted Academy affiliated agent in the the market which you're in, please reach out to me directly at grantatthevermiergroupcom. You can also reach out to me on my LinkedIn page, Grant Vermeer, and I'd be happy to respond to you there. Thank you so much, and now let's get back to the episode. Hey everyone, and welcome back to the Academy Insider Podcast. In this episode, I'm joined by Jim McNeil, who was a previous guest on the podcast, talking all about the Herndon Climb, but we have him back to talk about the leadership and ethics department and curriculum.
Speaker 1:At the United States Naval Academy, Navy's been dubbed as a leadership laboratory you hear that term thrown around all the time so we're going to do a deep dive into what aspects there really are in the personal and professional and leadership development of the young men and women who are at the Naval Academy. We talk about the actual academic curriculum. We talk about mentorship programs and just unofficial overarching mentorship at the Naval Academy. So make sure to check out this episode. If you enjoy it. I please ask that you like and subscribe to the podcast. If you can leave a review and even write a review, that would be incredible and you really help out the channel and the podcast.
Speaker 1:So thank you so much. If you ever have any questions, shoot them my way. Otherwise, I hope you enjoy the episode. Thank you so much for listening. All right, hey, everyone, Welcome back to the Academy Insider Podcast. Jim, thank you so much for coming back onto the podcast to join us again and share your insight and knowledge, this time all about the leadership and ethics component of the Naval Academy. So thank you so much. And if anyone is not familiar with you or hasn't listened to the first episode. Do you mind just giving a brief introduction about who you are and what your relation is to the Naval Academy? Experience and journey at large.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, I'm super excited to be here. So I'm a 1986 Naval Academy grad. I was commissioned as a supply corps officer.
Speaker 2:I did six years active duty, two deployments, two different ships, and then I had a great job as the supply officer at SEAL Team One for two years where I was basically a professional triathlete, I felt like because we had to work out as much as we want, which was a great time Transitioned into the reserve component and then did 25 years in the reserve component In the interim. While I was doing that, I had a wife and kids and a civilian job. My civilian job was I had an executive search business, so I did recruiting. My wife, after raising the kids, went back to school, became a middle school science teacher.
Speaker 2:We had our kids very young, so when the last one left, we were empty nesters. She said why am I a middle school science teacher? And we had our kids very young. So when the last one left, we were empty nesters. She said why am I a middle school teacher? I don't need to be off for the summer anymore, so I'm going to go get my PhD, which she did, and we ended up back. We lived in San Diego at the time but we ended up back in Maryland and she got a job at Towson University in Baltimore. So she's on kind of her second career at this point and I'm kind of along for the ride, just semi-retired, kind of do whatever I want.
Speaker 2:And I was able to get on the coaching staff as a volunteer with Navy Sprint Football Program, which is lightweight football, 178-pound weight limit. So I've been doing that since 2018. And then since 2020, fall of 20, I've been an adjunct professor for the sophomore, the youngster, ethics and leadership course, and I've also developed this organic mentoring business where I meet with midshipmen and go through various things that they want to talk about. So semi-retired but probably busier than I've ever been.
Speaker 1:Busier than you've ever been, because, as you didn't bring up in your own bio, is that you're also an author. Do you mind? And again, we talked about this in the Herndon episode. If you have not listened to the Herndon episode, I highly encourage you to do it. We'll put a link to it in the notes here as well. But do you mind talking about the books that you've published and that you're planning to as well?
Speaker 2:Yeah, books Thank you for a plural. So that's always the flex right when someone says tell me about your book, and you say which one? Right which one. So Herndon Climb is the history of the Herndon Climb. And that came out in the fall of 20.
Speaker 2:It is the only book out there that talks about the and you can watch the podcast, hopefully, and kind of go through that discussion, but how the Herndon climb came to be some of the interesting stories, et cetera. One little tidbit from that, if I could. One of the chapters is about. Chapter 11 is about Kristen Dickman, who passed away during finals week in her room and wore number six. So the number six jersey has been. They've always given it to somebody a setter on the volleyball team, and it's always an incoming freshman, and then they wear it for four years and ironically, the one that has just recently got graduated was the number six, was in my class and so her and I became friendly and I mentored her a little bit and we actually had a Zoom call with the incoming freshman who's going to get number six in honor of Kristen. So that's kind of fun. That's kind of fun that it's continuing on. The next book we had out is called Side by Side.
Speaker 2:It's a story a series of stories about people that have been buried side by side, whether or not it was something that they chose to do in life, and, although we didn't end up one of our chapters, what the genesis of it was seeing John McCain and Admiral Larson's graves together in the Naval Academy Cemetery. And for those that know Admiral Larson four-star admiral, twice superintendent and brigade commander as a midshipman and brigade commanders and midshipmen and John McCain was fifth from the bottom, and yet they were best friends.
Speaker 2:Yet they were best friends, and so I thought that would make an interesting story, and we ended up we went from maybe doing a book about just those two to doing a series of different vignettes, and the one that was our sample chapter was Admiral Crowe and Admiral Stockdale and they were best friends, class of 47.
Speaker 2:So, that was our second book, and there's a lot of stories like that which are really, really interesting. The book that we're now uh is into the publisher it'll be out uh in june of 2025 we hope earlier. Uh is uh crucibles. So this is a this. These are a series of stories about organizations that take ordinary people and make them elite, and so we have stories uh, uh about, uh about the Gurkhas astronauts, the French Foreign Legion, the Swiss Guard the.
Speaker 2:White Coat Ceremony for Doctors. A whole lot of stories about that with a lot of great interviews in that story and then the book that we're going to try to pitch. We have an agent now which is kind of nice, makes life a little bit easier. But we have an agent now and he's going to hopefully pitch a leadership book that we're going to take a little bit interesting, take on leadership and move forward with that. So thank you for the chance to plug all those books.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course, and very relatable as well, because the conversation about today is going to be all about leadership and leadership at the academy. And I feel like it's a really interesting topic because if you're listening, you've likely heard the Naval Academy dubbed colloquially as a leadership laboratory, and you know there are a lot of factors that go into that. But kind of a main piece that I think is especially very different from other universities or institutions is that midshipmen do go through a leadership and ethics curriculum. So I just want to ask the question to you right now is do you mind telling us a little bit about that leadership and ethics department and then what the goal and mission of the classroom instruction is in the development of midshipmen?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. The department is leadership, ethics and law. The department is leadership, ethics and law and the midshipmen have a four-year leadership curriculum. So the plebe leadership class, which is NL 110, is preparing to lead and really it's kind of learning yourself.
Speaker 2:And so it's not necessarily followership, but it's about hey, what are some things that you know? What is your Myers-Briggs, for example? What is your style? You know? What are some different things that you know? What are you about? And because as a plebe, you're really not leading anybody right, you're following, but the whole point of it is to be ready as a youngster, as a sophomore, to be able to lead, because the way that it's structured and I think when you were there as well, you have a squad, you have a fire team which is led by a second class, a junior, and then you have a youngster, a sophomore, who's assigned usually one plebe, and that's their first taste of leadership.
Speaker 2:So the plebe leadership class is to get ready for that. The class that I teach as an adjunct is ethical and moral reasoning for the naval leader, and it's NE203. So it's not NL, although I tell my students day one that this is a leadership class. This is not. Everybody calls it ethics, who do you have for ethics? But this is a leadership class and it's it's. It's a very unique. It's the only class of the academy structured where we have it's a three day, it's a three credit class, three hour class, and on Mondays we'll put two or three sections together and a, you know, a real, real PhD will teach and go through the academic underpinnings of what we're talking about Aristotle, stoicism, whatever we're talking about and then senior retired officers or officers that are on the yard will do the okay, that's the
Speaker 2:academic piece. What does it mean to you as a junior officer? How does this apply to you? What do you think about this? What do you think about that? So that's the class that I teach. And the academy made the decision to do that because in sophomore year, for example, air Force well, let me back up a little bit During the double E scandal in the mid-90s, congress mandated that all the service academies had to do an ethics ethics course.
Speaker 2:So the other service academies did it a little bit differently. Air force, for example. Their ethics class is senior year. Well, the academy said well, first of all, we're not going to do a senior year because we, you know, we have the commitment starts, you know, at the beginning of their junior year, two for seven.
Speaker 2:We want to talk about really difficult ethical decisions and moral decisions that these kids are going to have. We don't want someone saying as an ensign oh gee, I didn't realize I'd have to make that type of decision. I've had some kids in my class say huh, I don't know if I can do that. And I'll say, very politely and very supportively you need to really think about is this a place for you? Because you might have to put your finger on a button that shoots off a missile and potentially killing civilians, and you've got to be okay with that, and we talk about collateral damage and all these different factors. So that's the class that I teach. The junior leadership class is more kind of what you're going to do as a JAO a lot of counseling, a lot of what's your basic leadership style, things like that.
Speaker 1:And then the last class you take is law for the junior officer and that's NL400.
Speaker 2:And that's going over JAGMANs and UCMJ and NJP and all that good stuff. So it's a very well-rounded curriculum. And of course there's the leadership jobs in Bancroft Hall with those squads and companies and things. There's leadership jobs. You were a basketball player, so there's a team captain on basketball. There's a ton of clubs and extracurricular activities. So there's all sorts of leadership opportunities.
Speaker 2:And what I tell the meds, I will typically, three or four times a year we'll talk to a group of plebes. One of my students will say hey, I'm, you know, can you come talk to my plebes for an NMT, which is noon meal training. And I will tell the plebes look, no one's going to jam this leadership stuff that they may. You're going to have to take the leadership classes, but you have to go out and search for these leadership opportunities. No one's going to give them to you, so you've got to search for them. And, by the way, that is your job. So well, I'm a submariner, I'm a pilot, I'm a this, I'm a that. Yes, you are, but your job is leadership. That's the whole point of your job. So that's what you should be practicing 100%.
Speaker 1:I couldn't more wholeheartedly agree with that whole scenario and this is something that I talked about. I had the amazing opportunity to speak to the North Texas Parents Club, their Welcome Abort event, and I talked to the incoming plebs and I let them know, right, this is something that it's sometimes easy to shy away from, these experiences at the academy, right. But the true value and the beauty of the whole midshipman experience and the power of the midshipman experience, in my opinion, is being proactive is going and taking on those roles and responsibilities Because, like you're saying, there is true real life leadership experience. You know, facing conflict, facing complex human dynamics in these leadership spots, through roles in the brigade, whether you are a team captain, whether you're a squad leader, whether you go on and do these things in these roles within the brigade, you can have tactical leadership of 10 people, right, and you have this role where you are going to be a mentor and you're going to be very invested in the lives of those 10 people. Or you can go and you can apply to interview to be a battalion commander or the regimental commander and get a real sense of be a battalion commander or the regimental commander and get a real sense of organizational management and leadership.
Speaker 1:I don't know how many other institutions will give a student, a midshipman, the opportunity, and if you're the brigade commander, you are in charge of an organization of close to 4,500 people. Right, and you have to, and it's huge, right. And so these opportunities are incredible. And whether you want practice or experience with that low-level tactical leadership and management or that high-level organizational culture, building just overall organizational structure leadership and management, again, these opportunities exist. But you have to be proactive, you have to reach out, you have to find these mentors, you have to find these champions in your corner who are going to help you get to those spots that you want to get to.
Speaker 2:And well, exactly, and it's low risk. I mean, that's the other thing. It's this is very, it's, very low risk and it's this is the time to make the mistakes. And now one of the things that I and I talked to kids who you know, I'm sure you could agree when you get out there, you think you're prepared, and then you get out there and you just get blindsided by a million things that you didn't, didn't even expect. Right, but that's just kind of the nature of the beast, but as much as you can do to get ready. And I always say you know, I always pitch to the, to the plebes or any group I'm taught. I talk to my students and ask them the question when does your career start? And I'll hear, oh, when you're born, or when you got I-Day or graduation, or keep going, keep going. And my take is your career starts that day. You stand in front of your division for the first time. That's what it's all about.
Speaker 1:So backing up from there, reverse engineering from there, is what I'm doing now in support of being able to stand in front of my group and you know, my division, whatever platoon, and be the best officer I can be 100%, and I love that in a big piece of the Naval Academy and getting ready for that moment that you're talking about, that moment where you stand in front of your platoon for the first time or your division for the first time and you're going to give that address, is the influence of mentors at the Academy.
Speaker 1:And so when we talk about leadership and ethics and just everything of the sort at the Naval Academy, obviously the educational curriculum is a piece of it, but in my opinion, kind of what separates the service academies from other opportunities is specifically this, which is the access to senior officers, to people who have real world Marine Corps and Navy leadership experience, who are ready and willing to invest into your life. And so I just want to turn it over to you to talk a little bit about what you're doing with mentorship and what you see the role of senior officers is in the mentorship of midshipmen mentorship and what you see, the role of senior officers is in the mentorship of midshipmen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so well, there's a formal and it's run by Captain Rick Rubel, who's really the person that started our curriculum in E203. And he's put together a third-class character coaching program and so that gives youngsters an opportunity to be associated with mentors, kind of a low risk or low risk type environment where they just sign up and they're assigned somebody as opposed to going and ask somebody.
Speaker 2:I know that, as I got more comfortable teaching the last thing that I started saying on the last day of class was hey, feel free to come to me if you need letters of recommendation, character statements for adjudications, for whatever they do wrong. I've written a lot of those. I've stood next to them for act boards and honor boards, but what I ended up doing is I will pick up a couple of kids who say, hey, do you mind if we start meeting? And really I just listen, and I've been coaching football a long time.
Speaker 1:I've been coaching a long time.
Speaker 2:And I think my advantage is I know how to talk to kids and I see some of my peers and they don is I know how to talk to kids and I see some of my peers and they don't really know how to talk to kids, and so and and and and really it's mentorship. And this is kind of mentorship, one-on-one. It can never be about you, you know it's it's not about hey.
Speaker 2:Let me tell you about all the stuff I did. Right, it's always about hey, how can I be helpful? And so I have some of the midshipmen want to talk about. You know, we talk about their academic struggles, some we talk about their personal stuff, some we talk about their service selection, some we talk about their sports teams, it's just whatever. But it's very few of them go aggressively trying to get several different mentors and, like I said, I just think it's because they're so busy and no one's really telling them. So I hope they watch this of how important getting mentors is. And the old expression is Tom Brady has a coach, right? So you don't get to the point. You don't get to the point where you're like, hey, I'm, you know I don't need a coach anymore. I made it. Everybody needs a coach, everybody needs someone to bounce ideas off of and I'm just, I'm just happy that.
Speaker 2:I have the opportunity to do that and I and I get referrals and, hey, can I? My? My plea was struggling or this person is struggling, can I have this person talk to you? And so I have this burgeoning business and it's probably a couple dozen midshipmen that I meet with, some weekly, some every other week, some monthly, with text messages and different stuff. So very, very busy doing that, and it's been very, very busy doing that, Um, and it's it's it's been very, very rewarding.
Speaker 2:I just had nine firsties graduate, uh, which is, which was great. Some, some were, some were piece of cake, some were not Um, but it was, it was. It was gratifying to see. But it was gratifying to see these, not only gratifying to see them graduate, but to see the joy of their families, because I think, if you're, my dad was Naval Academy, class 62, and so he had a pretty good idea of what I was going through.
Speaker 2:But I think, for a lot of the families, if they don't have that experience, it's just a big mystery. And and you and and I think that's the other thing that I can I kind of provide as a grad Um, not that I'm taking the place of a parent, I would never do that, but they can talk to me about things and I get it, whereas maybe their parents don't get it because they just haven't gone through that. But being on the field after graduation and the pictures and the first salutes and just the joy the families have and I'm going to the graduation parties, you know I went to half a dozen graduation parties this year and just the joy of the families.
Speaker 1:I mean that that makes it all worthwhile. I love that and I really appreciate what you do in supporting midshipmen with the mentorship stuff Because, again, when I look back and I reflect on my time as a midshipman, obviously the curriculum is great and it teaches you a lot. The most I learned about myself, my development, how I wanted to be as a leader, how I processed certain things that were happening, were because of the amazing mentors that were in my corner Right Like I. I remember wholeheartedly these conversations I would have with major Kruisinger. He was on the commandant staff Um, I think he was the commandant's operations officer, uh, for Colonel Luzewski. He was also the basketball officer representative and we would go on road trips together and he gave me multiple books. We read through multiple books to this day. Gates of Fire is like the number one book. That like reading Gates of Fire and then having conversations with Major Kruisinger about his experience as a Marine Corps infantry officer, how it related to him, how it related to what I was going through at the academy and just all these different processes, my development as a, as a person, the way I thought all these different factors was immense, immense, right, and I just I want to make a point, to talk to everyone here listening that there are so many amazing Navy and Marine Corps leaders who are on the yard, who are there to teach, coach and mentor your sons or daughters. They can be on staff at the academy. Their primary mission is to teach, coach and mentor all of the midshipmen there and help them in their personal and professional development. And whether, again, it's for 4,500 individuals with different personality types and what's amazing is that there are so many different also personality types on the yard that you will be able to find someone who can connect with you and speak to you in your own unique language that you understand.
Speaker 1:Right, whether you're an analytic person, you have that submarine or brain. Whether you're kind of a little bit more low key, you just have this pilot calmness to you. Whether you are you're, you're, you're an operator and you have this stoic mindset and you want to be a SEAL, or whether you have that like polished and motivated, like really you know grasp persona of a Marine. There there are officers and senior enlisted mentors and senior enlisted leaders that are on the yard ready to be that for you, ready to be that teacher, coach and mentor, and so it really is. It's special, and I just want to say thank you because I remember the impact and influence that Commander Murnane and Lowell Kruisinger had in my life right. Without those two individuals, without those two men, like I'm not who I am today, right. And so I just want to thank you as well for that impact you have on midshipmen going through the process as well, because I think it's what makes the Naval Academy so special.
Speaker 2:Well, it is and you have. You know, it's this kind of this journey. I know that everybody that graduates is kind of like oh know it's, it's this kind of this journey. I know that everybody that graduates is kind of like oh man, I'm done with that and put it in the rear view mirror and all that.
Speaker 1:And then when you get a little bit of distance, you realize, man, that was, that was a really special.
Speaker 2:You know, that was a really special place and the classmates and everything. And, man, I didn't really understand this at the time, but now I really understood why they were doing this. And you know, I think there's a tendency and I guess I put myself as a 60 year old, you know, as an old grad put myself in that box who like to chirp from the sidelines, and that's fine, got to be.
Speaker 2:You can't help from the outside, you've got to help from the inside, and there's a lot. There's an alumni mentoring program that's been going on for a long time. There's, like I said, volunteer opportunities. There's working with the parents' clubs, working being a blue and gold officer. I mean there are a ton of ways that you can give back being a blue and gold officer. I mean there are a ton of ways that you can give back. But just so, if you're not willing to do that, then back in my day, when I you know by the way, no midshipman ever wants to hear back when I was a plebe, this is how it was. They are not interested in that in any way, shape or form. Now I will talk to them about that, I'll tell them and they'll kind of get scared about how it was. But to take the attitude of well, it was harder in my day. And what are you complaining about? I mean, that'll be the shortest mentoring session in the history of mentoring sessions, right, they're looking for someone to help them, and this is what I, you know.
Speaker 2:When new adjuncts come in to teach our class I just had a friend who joined a couple of years ago. You got to meet them where they are because you don't, you know, we, we don't know where they are. We have, we have some kids who come from, uh, you know, rancho Santa Fe, in San Diego, right, very wealthy area. One of my students a couple of semesters ago is from try to say San Diego, right, very wealthy area. One of my students a couple semesters ago was from try to say San Diego, and when I peeled the onion she said Rancho Santa Fe. I'm like, okay, gotcha, Got it.
Speaker 2:Got it and I had another student graduate a couple years ago who grew up in the hood and in really, really bad poverty. So you've got to figure out where these kids are and meet them where they're at.
Speaker 2:But like you said, there are so many different, there are so many different mentors and, yeah, you, you can talk to uh different people and say, well, I really liked this person, I connected, or well, I didn't really connect with this person, Uh, so I'm really not going to do it. And but you're right, it isn't. And you made a really, really excellent point. It isn't just you know everybody's the same. No matter what type of style you have or background or whatever, there is a mentor for you at the Naval Academy 100%.
Speaker 1:And I love the point you're talking about having to meet people where they're at. I was at this officiating camp. For anyone who doesn't know, my kind of life side quest is I'm a college basketball official, I'm a basketball junkie, I love it, I'm doing it. And this guy, bob Delaney, an incredible old NBA referee, retired now and kind of gives back in teaching to the next wave of officials, he gave a conversation.
Speaker 1:He's like we need to adjust and adapt as times change.
Speaker 1:Obviously, this is in relation to basketball and how the game was officiated, but the parallel is here, exactly that he's like hey, look, if you say, oh, 40 years ago I used to go to a phone booth to make phone calls, right, that's how I did it back then.
Speaker 1:If you took this today, 4040 days, or today from 40 years ago, and you walk around trying to make phone calls from a phone booth, you're not going to call anyone, right, you're not going to call anyone right. And so you have to adjust and adapt with the times. And you have to adjust and adapt with the personality and meet the people where they're at in order to effectively communicate and affect change, right. And so I really appreciate you bringing that up because it's so important, right, and I hope this can be a call to all alumni as well. It's like, if you want to be that, like, invest right, pour into the experience and try and, you know, make an impact and do give back and volunteer and invest. Become a blue and gold officer, whatever the case is, because that's how, that's how we continue to, to mentor and mold and share our wisdom and experience through, through what's going on Um, and do it in a way that can that can relate and resonate with the young men and women who are going through it right now.
Speaker 2:Right, going through it right now. Yeah, explain to me. Sorry to interrupt. I heard explained to me time and treasure, right, so you know. So, hey, I, you know, I donate my whatever to the to the Academy.
Speaker 1:Okay, that.
Speaker 2:The Academy has unfunded things that they need money for to do various things, and that's great, but time also time and treasure, not one or the other, one or the other.
Speaker 1:Absolutely I love it. And speaking of the midship and the young men and women who are going through right now, I do want to talk about some of the things that you're currently witnessing and experiencing in your role as a mentor and so kind of the focus that I want to talk about is, as you're seeing young midshipmen come through, as you're talking about like you're seeing young midshipmen in their in their plebe years, in their youngster years, what are you seeing that is causing some midshipmen to excel in the midshipman experience and others to really struggle, and how have you tried to mentor and address that proactively in your role?
Speaker 2:No, good, good, good question. So, and I don't think this is certainly not unique to the Naval Academy midshipmen, I think that this, I don't think I know this Gen Z, which is this group of this group, now struggles a lot with anxiety, uh, struggles a lot with anxiety and in, in in the old day. So I will say back in my day a little bit here. You know, back in my day someone would say, hey, I'm worried about this, right, I'm worried about this event.
Speaker 2:I've got a big test coming up I have this important interview I have whatever, but gen z tends to just have this general sense of anxiety, and so one of the things that that I that our course we. I talked a little about stoicism. You know, stoicism is controlling what you can control, and so that I think that's a really, really important thing and that's one of the things I try to, to work with them and shipment on uh is really focusing on what you can control, because that's just life in general. And oh, what if I get to a? You know.
Speaker 2:I, you know what if I get to my ship and my COs really mean there's nothing you can do about that, there's no reason to worry about it. That could happen, Um.
Speaker 2:I would say you know we were talking about a little bit earlier. You know, if people that stay in for a career, generally speaking and I'll say in more, you know, maybe a very high percentage they stay in because they had such great JO tours when other just as qualified people didn't have great JO tours and they said, why would I stick around? Right, so you don't have any control over that, so you need to focus on what you control. But the thing that I have seen that allows midshipmen to deal with the slings and arrows of academy life, all the demands on their time, the you know, the academics, the physical, all the requirements on their time, the. You know the, the, the academics, the physical, all the requirements, the military stuff and oh, by the way, what's another factor, social media, right In the old day, you know in the old days, again back in the day, you know, I knew my friends were going to UCLA and they're having a great time, but I would talk to them at Christmas.
Speaker 1:You didn't see it.
Speaker 2:I didn't see it. Now the fear of missing out is really prevalent, but I will say there's a lot of variables of the midshipmen that I meet with, whether it's how old they are prior listed sex, race, sex-oriented, whatever it is, it doesn't matter. The one thing that determines whether they're able to handle the slings and arrows of the academy is do they come from a strong family or not? And if they come from a strong family, a supportive family?
Speaker 2:a healthy family. They can take whatever happens. They can take it and they can figure it out. If they don't have that, it's incredibly difficult. If they don't have that, it's incredibly difficult and that's why I mentioned earlier as a mentor. I have to meet them where they are. So I always say my leadership style, I'm very intrusive. It drives me crazy when I talk to parents and well, what's going on with so-and-so? Well, I didn't ask, none of my business, no it actually't ask that, none of my business.
Speaker 2:No, it actually is your business. It's my business. Now I'm going to ask my 35-year-old daughter what's going on.
Speaker 1:She better not tell me it's none of my business, it's always my business.
Speaker 2:I'm a dad, it's my business. So I dig into this. Hey, what's going on? Tell me about your family, tell me about this, what's going on here? What's going on here? Because that has a huge impact on what their situation is. And you can't be a good mentor if you're just going to kind of take a one size fits all, because that's not what it is. It's not a one size fits all. You have to do that. So the number one thing is a strong family. So if you're watching this and you have a great, strong family and, by the way, it doesn't happen by accident, it is a lot of hard work but if you're at that, congratulations, because your mid, or your future mid, is going to have an easier time of it than some of these kids that I meet with 100% and just from personal experience.
Speaker 1:If it wasn't for the family that I have and I love my mom to death, especially so this is what it is but if it wasn't for my dad, especially in my experience going through the academy, I would have left. I would have left, but he again, out of all the mentors I had at the academy, out of all these things, the person who was there for me when I was at my lowest, at my rock bottom, when I was in my most emotional state, was always my dad Right and he was he would never be, you know statement driven. He would help me calm down and take a practical, rational approach via inquisition right Like you're talking about that through asking questions, right Through making me realize the reality and the rationality of the situation and what would happen if I were to make a certain decision.
Speaker 1:You know every decision every you said you have consequences, right they?
Speaker 2:have consequences?
Speaker 1:Exactly, they have consequences, they do. Are you ready? Do you understand what those consequences are? Right, they have consequences. Exactly, they have consequences, they do. Are you ready? Do you understand what those consequences are? If you understand what they are and you're okay with them, that's one thing I just need you to do. You understand what happens if you make this emotional decision right now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what it is. It's an emotional decision, right.
Speaker 1:It's an emotional decision, right, it's an emotional 100%.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's an emotional decision and it's, I will say, the the, you know the the Academy has a lot.
Speaker 2:There's some things that are way better than we were than I don't know about. You know, not your time but my time, not your time but my time. So the, the uh MDC, which is the midshipman development center, has a lot of resources, uh, mental health resources, different, different things like that Uh, and you can go there. There's no, there's no stigma to that, so you can do that. So that's that's one advantage. And then they have this uh academic center where they have tutors and they have all this sort of thing. So there is a lot of help and there's a lot of resources. So, to your point, there are some people who just say, hey, look, this isn't for me, which is totally fine, but that is the tiny, tiniest, tiniest percentage.
Speaker 1:Minority Yep. Well, whole, wholeheartedly, wholeheartedly agree. And as we're talking about again the role and impact of mentors and everything kind of from the mentor perspective, I do want to take this opportunity to almost talk directly to the midshipmen and I want to hear in your opinion why you think it's so important for midshipmen to have access to these mentors in the form of faculty and staff, and why they should be, if they can be, proactive in finding these mentors to help them in their journey.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that there's a lot of people who are going. One of the things about this generation I think they feel like they're judged, especially again with social media, and they feel like they're going to be judged and they're going to be class ranking, company ranking is a big deal as far as the order of merit, certainly, hey, if you're on a sport team, you want to play right, so you want to start to play right, so you want to start. And with a mentor, it's you know, and I'm to the point with my mentors, with my mentees. I don't they always say, hey, sir, do you mind, can we just keep this in the room? And I, you don't even need to say that, everything we talk about is completely confidential and I don't even admit, I don't even tell other people that I'm meeting with these people.
Speaker 2:So I have friends who will talk about a midshipman and blah, blah, and I'm mentoring them and I don't say, oh, that's my mentee, I don't say that. So this is completely confidential, nonjudgmental, and there's a role for that, especially at the Naval Academy. I think in life that's great. You'd like to think that your spouse would potentially be, would potentially? You know, they'll judge you a little bit, maybe you know. At least you know it's fully supportive, nonjudgmental, someone who only wants what's in their best interest.
Speaker 2:And the other thing that we kind of forget about and I I think about to my, you know my plebe experience and with the class of 83, and they were very, very tough on us, incredibly tough on us, and you think about how you viewed them.
Speaker 2:These were 21 and 22 year old kids, Right, and we thought they were just you know, just you know this crazy group of people, so you know the other, you know the midshipmen people, so you know the other, you know the midshipmen are. They're young, right, they're young kids and so, by being a mentor and having some life experience, you can I'm not saying that midshipmen and midshipmen mentoring isn't great, because it is. And I would say, you know, if you're, if you're a midshipman who's already at the academy, if you can mentor somebody below you, that's great Because, again, that's not only is that helping that person, but you're kind of developing that muscle, right, because that's one of the things, again, when you're out as a division officer, platoon commander, it won't be long after you take over when one of your young enlists is going to knock on your door and say hey, sir, hey, ma'am, you have a few minutes.
Speaker 1:Can I talk to?
Speaker 2:you about something. I got a problem, I got this, I got that.
Speaker 1:So that's developing that mentoring skill, that's important what one million percent just articulate from personal anecdotes. The majority of my time even deployed underway on a submarine with with a tactical job to do like the number one thing I was doing was exactly that was having was having my sailors tell you that.
Speaker 1:Right, it's all about the job, job, job, right, but yeah oh my gosh, I, I remember, you know a scenario, and again, these are these are crazy situations, right, but but sailors coming to you with, with adult problems, right, with adult problems as a, as a 22 year old, and you're there, you're their boss, right, you're their leader, you're their manager, and so how are you going to approach those situations? Right, how are you going to approach those situations? And that's why I think we're saying having that mentor, having that ability to provide perspective and help you navigate these situations for the first time, right, because the academy, by its nature, both academic or, excuse me, academic, athletic and military related it's going to put you in hard situations.
Speaker 1:You're going to face hard moments where you have to make difficult decisions, navigate your emotions and thought process about how you react to all of these things, and so to have people in your corner, like you're saying that you can go to without fear of judgment, without fear of any kind of thought, but just go. This is what I'm going through, this is what I'm thinking about, like, what, what, what do I need to be considering? What do I need to be thinking about? Right, and it's incredible. Right, it's those kinds of things that will expedite your process of becoming that person who's ready to handle those challenges in the fleet, because that's going to be your job, it's going to be your role.
Speaker 2:And that's what. I tell them. I said I tell these midshipmen that that literally is their job and so one of the big things is this peer leadership and correcting. You know, you know. So what if there's men listening to this? The worst thing you can call a mid is a helmet. You know what that is. Have you heard that term?
Speaker 1:I've heard it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mid is a helmet. You know that is. Have you heard that term? I've heard it. Yeah, so a helmet, right, helmet, someone who's overly concerned with the rules and correcting people and all that other stuff, and you know so, so that you know those. Oh, you know, I don't want to be a helmet, but, or whatever, and what I try to tell them is, literally, your job is to is is to correct people. If the XO on your ship comes to you and says, hey, I saw a couple of your sailors and they look terrible, they both needed haircuts and you say, hey, sir, yeah, you know, I just didn't want to be a helmet. That's not going to fly. That's your job. Now, do you have to say it in a negative way? No, do you have to say it in a negative way?
Speaker 2:no, do you have to say it in a condescending way no but part of of figuring out how you're going to be a junior officer is getting used to correcting people, and we academy doesn't do a great job of making kind of emphasizing that point. I don't think of this. This is you can't just flip that switch. You know you can't just flip that switch. Now do you need to be out there? You know with with you know pad of paper and hey, what's your alpha code? I put you in.
Speaker 1:No, you don't need to do any of that, but you need to practice how to positively correct people, because that is your job, it's your job and, like you're saying, it's it's hard, it's hard to do in, in handling those situations and having those conversations. It's a skill, like it's a muscle that needs to be trained and you need to have those repetitions in doing it because, like you're saying, when you get to the fleet, like that's your responsibility, yeah, that's your responsibility, right. And and having difficult conversations with people, again, it doesn't mean you need to be rude, it doesn't mean you need to be a jerk, it doesn't mean you need to be degrading, but you need to be able to have serious, difficult conversations with people. And again, it's something. And again, having, in my opinion, having those mentors to help me navigate those situations for the first, like for the first time as I was going through them as a midshipman, it's an, it's an exponential increase.
Speaker 1:Again, I'll use the term uh, like it's a, it's a force multiplier, right, like it's this ability to have these mentors to to do, do um, these things and teach you these lessons and these, like you're saying, low risk scenarios, yeah, but they're real scenarios, right. When you're in a midshipman, when you're ingrained in it, when you're engulfed in it, it feel it's so real, it's so real. But, at the same time, from the outside perspective, it's very low threat, it's very low risk, right, and so you get these amazing opportunities, which is incredible, which is incredible.
Speaker 2:Please let me. I could just add this. So one of the things I tell at some point during the semester I tell my students what is the most important leadership job you're ever going to have.
Speaker 2:And I'll hear all this stuff and eventually somebody will get it and I'll say a parent. Somebody will get it and they'll say a parent, and that is and that's. And we, we tell our student at least I tell my students that my class is the most important class they're ever going to take at the academy and they're going to use. If they, if they sell out and and really focus on the material and start implementing their lives, it's going to change them, that they'll be using it for the rest of their lives live. But having difficult conversation with your kids, that's important, right, and being intrusive and what's going on, and and you know, if you don't do that type of stuff and you don't get used to doing it, well, I don't want my kid to hate me. I don't want my kid to think I'm a helmet Guess what. You're going to end up with a bad kid.
Speaker 2:Yeah Right, I've never heard somebody and I don't want to get off topic but, I've never heard someone say when they talk about their parents oh, my parents were so incredibly easy, that's why we're just great friends now. I never hear that.
Speaker 1:It's. Yeah, my parents were tough, but comma, right, it's a parent's job to parent. Yes, it's a parent's job to parent, but we'll leave it at that and we're gonna. We'll start to transition this back over, which is we talked a little bit about what you see midshipmen struggling with, right, this new age of social media, all these different aspects, is kind of a chronic anxiety of everything that's going on. But I kind of want to flip it to the opposite side, which is what do you see as aspects as you're mentoring these midshipmen? What do you see as aspects that bring mission, purpose, joy and fulfillment to these young midshipmen? Like, what are they coming out with? That's like keeping them going and motivating them through their experience at the academy.
Speaker 2:No good question. So, first of all, they, they are all just, really, really just strong patriots. They all really want to serve and for the most part, these aren't kids who just showed up at the academy and said, hey, I want to serve. They've been serving in their communities even before they got to the academy. They really want to serve, they really want to give back. There's a thing called MGSP, which is a midshipman mentoring group, Right? So you have kids that give back to that, the interest in their jobs. You know you'll say you know. So back to anxiety. Anxiety about, you know, getting my first choice for service assignment.
Speaker 1:What do you?
Speaker 2:want to do. I don't know. Everything would be great, but I'm really nervous if I don't get my first choice. So they're very, very interested in what's going. You know what the different communities. They're super excited about that. The other thing is and this is something that wasn't in our day there's so many opportunities for LRECs, which are things out of the country. I don't know what that stands for learning something, but going to different countries, semester abroad. You know, backpacking trips.
Speaker 2:One of our sponsor kids graduated a couple of years ago. You know one of her summer training assignments was canoeing in Wisconsin with some, with some Girl Scouts, and just doing stuff like that. So when they say, hey, I'm a patron, I want to serve, yes, but they also live it also. And they're just really, really focused, determined kids, and that's what's so gratifying about it, because it isn't. It isn't trying to take unmotivated people and motivate them.
Speaker 2:You know as a coach and you know and you, as a d1 athlete yourself, if someone's going million miles an hour you could, you can work with that hey, you need to adjust your technique here, you need to do this, or hey, you were supposed to do a set of screen here and you missed that. But if you're doing whatever you're doing, do it a million miles an hour. If someone's not giving full effort, there's nothing you can do, and these mids basically put forth 100% effort in everything that they do. So now, sometimes it's not the right stuff right or they're missing the mark, and that's where we can kind of push them in the right direction.
Speaker 1:but the motivation and and the desire to serve and just be great members of the community, that that's there for the vast, vast majority 100, and I'm going to use this opportunity because I love the exact analogy you use, which is that was something coach ed de chelis always told us. Right, he's like you're. You're a division one basketball player. You've come to a part of an organization that is here to to win, right, we're, we're here to do things. Well, your effort I'm not going to coach your effort right, like you, that is a, that is a baseline thing. That is a requirement for you being here. Right, I will coach X's and O's. I'll teach you how to guard a back screen. I'll teach you how to guard a back screen. I'll teach you how to guard a down screen. I'll teach you how to do all these things.
Speaker 1:We're going to work on the, on the tactical aspects of a high level basketball team effort. That's, that's a, that's a given like, that's a guarantee. I will not coach effort. If you don't give 100 effort, you just won't be on the team right, right, you just won't be on the team. Yeah, and so I love that. You know it's a similar sentiment in the brigade of midshipmen. Right, you have highly competent, highly successful, highly just, impressive people who have a desire to be there right, and that level of effort and investment into the experience makes it easy where then you can course correct slightly, you can give them recommendations on how to handle situations. But the core of what you need to be there, that effort, that attitude and effort, I mean that's what you need, right, and it's possessed through the vast majority of the brigade of midshipmen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, and you know, and this has always been the case. But I think one of the other things that the kids kind of struggle with a little bit is, you know, hey, back in my high school, I was this and I was that and I was big man or woman on campus and I was the president of everything and the varsity. Uh, you know I was just talking to somebody earlier whose daughter's at the summer seminar today or this week and oh yeah, 12 varsity letters and president.
Speaker 2:This is it. We get to the academy, everybody's that everybody is everybody's that, and so that is always.
Speaker 2:That's a little if. If I had to to take the the. The comment that has been the most widely heard thing in my mentoring session is I've never had to, I've never failed before I got an F in this, or I didn't do well in this, or I didn't. You know I. I had one of my sprint players who happened to be in my class. I gave him a B on a paper, an 88, but still be. And he said hey, can I do extra instruction EI with you? And he came in and the first words he said is I've never gotten less than an A on any assignment ever in my life. He couldn't. He was like he couldn't comprehend that.
Speaker 1:Refuddled.
Speaker 2:It was just, yeah, it was just completely like what is this? And that if you're going to be part of an elite organization, you've got to understand.
Speaker 1:Everybody's like that, and there is a certain amount of struggles with that, for sure 100, and it's it's something that I talk about a lot on this platform, about what makes the academy so special. Right, again, you've taken all of these extremely impressive, really highly competent, highly motivated people and they have to learn how to fail for the first time. They have to learn how to handle hard situations. Right, the whole conversation about life in the Naval Academy it never gets easier. Right, we just have to get better at handling hard moments. Right, and I think that's really what the power of being a midshipman is is you take all these people who have never failed their whole life, who have always been incredible, and now you start to put them through these situations where they have to learn how to handle hard better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because, like we're saying, when you get to the fleet, it's not getting easier. No, it's not getting easier. Right, we just have to become better at handling hard moments, and I think that's what's incredible at the Naval Academy is because it's going to put you in difficult situations. You're going to face hard moments but instead of having to face them on your own and potentially crumbling, wrap this all together there are so many incredible mentors who are there right To help you navigate these situations for the first time, and it's what makes it such a special place. I truly believe the power of the midshipman experience is becoming a person who handles the hard situations in life better, right.
Speaker 2:And you're not, and you're not. You know you talked about the mentors, of course, but you're not alone either, and you have alone either. Your classmates are unbelievably important in that process. We just had a mini company class reunion a couple weeks ago. There were people that I hadn't seen since graduation. That was a long time ago, graduation, and that was a long time ago. And you talk to them like you saw them yesterday, which is amazing. No awkwardness, no, no, none of that.
Speaker 2:It's just like I said, it's just you're, they're just, they're your family for the rest of your life and that that's a that's a thing that I I I is one of the kind of I don't know if it's unintended, but it's one of great, great things by being a Naval Academy graduate is you have that for the rest of your life.
Speaker 1:For the rest of your life. It's my favorite verse in the blue and gold. It talks about all of us being scattered far and wide, but the moment we come back together and tell stories and share things, it's like we had never left. That's right. It's like we have never left. Yep, all right. Well, as we start to wrap this up, and first of all, thank you so much for sharing so much of your insight and wisdom. This has been incredible. I just want to give you the opportunity to give your best recruiting pitch and final thoughts as we talk to and, you know, publicize these episodes to prospective students, to high school kids who are listening about what makes the Service Academy so special. Prospective students, to high school kids who are listening, about what makes the service academy so special. What do you want to leave the audience with? About why young men and women should consider the service academies and what makes the Naval Academy such a special place for the development of leaders.
Speaker 2:Well, when you're a Naval Academy midshipman, you are part of a unbelievably strong fraternity, and I mean that gender neutral. You know, all the great naval leaders in history have come from the Naval Academy. Admiral Stockdale talked about how humbling it was for him, and again he's class of 47. So he taught even you know his. You know World War II had just you know was was going on when he was at the academy talked about, you know, walking on stribbling walk to class. You know there were leaders in the Navy and Marine Corps that walked on the same place. So it's it's. It's an incredible legacy of service. You're going to get a world-class education. You'll be tested, unlike anything that you could potentially go through, and the good news is is that you have a ton of support no one. You know the mission has changed a little bit. You know in the old days it was kind of attrition was the mission and that's not the case. It is anymore.
Speaker 2:It's hey, if we accept you to the Naval Academy, you have the ability to be successful, so it's our job to give you the resources in order to be successful. So you'll be tested unlike you've never been tested but the emotion of throwing your hat up at graduation which just went to a couple weeks ago.
Speaker 2:I still got chills because, I remember that for me, and if they could bottle that emotion, sell it as a drug, everybody in the world would be an addict, because I've never had a surge of emotion like that in my life where you've. After that, and I went to the prep school so I was on the five year plan. So we, you know we class of 86, we, you know we, we bought it as a class and we're still bought as a class. And last thing I said is you'll, you'll never regret going to the Naval Academy.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, I love it. And one last question, someone we ask everyone who comes on the show, which is you know. I talk a lot about the impact people can have with simple actions, right and just being invested in someone's life. Do you mind talking about someone who made a positive impact on your experience in your Naval Academy journey?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'd like to talk about my dad, if I could you know?
Speaker 2:I heard about the Naval Academy from him. He loved Navy football, he loved the Academy. He was a Marine Corps officer in Vietnam. Navy football, he loved the Academy, he was a Marine Corps officer in Vietnam. He, he got. I think if it hadn't been right in the middle of Vietnam you know Vietnam with, you know all that was going on there he probably would have stayed in for a career. I don't think my dad would have described himself as a mentor. I don't think that's his generation, I don't think really thought in those terms. But he, the way that he carried himself and the way that uh he did things.
Speaker 2:Uh, I definitely paid attention to. And that was that. And I knew that he, I knew that he knew what I was going through and I think that was.
Speaker 2:That was very comforting to me. Now he wasn't necessarily saying, hey, tell me how tough it is, but I knew that he knew that I was going through it. And a really interesting comment when he read the Herndon book he said and my dad is not a big reader or was not a big reader, but he read the Herndon book, so he probably the only you know book they read all the way through and usually would read you know one page a night and fall asleep. But you know, he said. He said you know I read about your plebe experience in the.
Speaker 2:Herndon book. I really made me sad for you because I remember how it was, how it was and I I you know as a dad I really felt bad for you. So I think my you know, from from a mentor standpoint again back to the family piece of it, having a, having a, having a parent that went there was, was super helpful to me, yeah absolutely Well.
Speaker 1:thank you so much for all your time today, time today, sharing all your wisdom, knowledge and experience with all of us. I can't say thank you enough for everything. I think this has been a phenomenal insight into the leadership and ethics curriculum at the Academy, as well as all of the external pieces that really comprise the entirety of the leadership development of the young men and women that are at the Naval Academy. So I appreciate you taking the time to talk with us today. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I'm happy to be on here anytime.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and just a reminder for everyone listening you just listened to an hour-long conversation about incredible aspects of leadership. When that book publishes, I highly recommend you go, take a look at it and do it, because it's going to be incredible. It's going to be incredible. So, again, jim, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today and speak to the Academy Insider audience. For everyone listening, feel free to shoot me a question anytime you have it, and I hope you have a great day, thanks. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Academy Insider Podcast. I really hope you liked it, enjoyed it and learned something during this time. If you did, please feel free to like and subscribe or leave a comment about the episode. We really appreciate to hear your feedback about everything and continue to make Academy Insider an amazing service that guides, serves and supports midshipmen, future midshipmen and their families. Thank you.
